Shooting 6" low at 100 yds.

[foxman]

Knight wolverine with 90gr pyrodex.   On the money at 50 yards but is grouping  6 inches low  at 100 yards.  I am shooting 245 gr Powerbelts.  Any suggestions on the big drop at 100?   Only thing I can think of is maybe not getting a good gas seal.   It is an older Wolverine and use #11 caps.

[PA-Joe]

That may be correct. At 50yds you should be about 2 inches high.

[Jagdzeit]

Knight wolverine with 90gr pyrodex.   On the money at 50 yards but is grouping  6 inches low  at 100 yards.  I am shooting 245 gr Powerbelts.  Any suggestions on the big drop at 100?   Only thing I can think of is maybe not getting a good gas seal.   It is an older Wolverine and use #11 caps.

Are you shooting iron sights or scoped ? Most people don't realized that the line of sight of a scope is up to an inch and a half higher on a scoped setup and the trajectory of the bullet, in relation to that line, will be completely different to it than with a set of iron sights, dependig on what range it's shot in.
I shoot all of my scoped rifles in dead on at 25 yds to start with. That will usually, depending on the caliber, put the bullet about 2 inches high at 100 yds. Then I adjust from there, depending on my intentions.
With iron sights, I adjust 1/2 to 3/4 inch high at 25 yds and it ends up about the same at 100 yds.

Stay Safe,
Franz

[RandyWakeman]

The main thing is that it IS grouping!

The answer is easy, just sight it in dead on @100 yards, then go back for a couple of 50 yard groups-- then, you will know.

[crow_feather]

Good advice Randy - you can always move the sights - you just need the bullet to hit where they are moved to.

C F

[foxman]

Shooting a scope.  I am not overly concerned with the line of sight or whether its zeroed at 25 or 100.  The thing that worried the most, seemed that 6 in drop was pretty excessive.  Looking at ballistic table included in the Powerbelt package, should not have been more than a couple of inches.
Am I just trying to make it dfficult?

[crow_feather]

Foxman,

You have to remember the curve of the bullet - or lack of.
If the bullet is on the way down at 50 yds then it will drop fast
If the bullet is on the way up - then it goes farther up before it drops

I'm not sure but I think if you go a couple inches high at 50, then it doubles at 100 so you will be 2 inches low or something like that.

There are better minds out there than mine that can give you a better explanation

C F

[RandyWakeman]

Shooting a scope.  I am not overly concerned with the line of sight or whether its zeroed at 25 or 100.  The thing that worried the most, seemed that 6 in drop was pretty excessive.  Looking at ballistic table included in the Powerbelt package, should not have been more than a couple of inches.
Am I just trying to make it dfficult?

Not trying, but yes-- I believe you are. I don't believe you can "zero" a gun at 25 yards, for shooting beyond 25 yards.

Unless you are such a steady hand that you are always shooting through the same hole, being off by just the bullet diameter itself at 25 yards is 2" at 100 yards. The best bet is always to sight in a gun at the max. range you intend to use it at.

[Jagdzeit]

I don't believe you can "zero" a gun at 25 yards, for shooting beyond 25 yards.

I hate having to think this early in the AM, and Randy, I intend no disrespect.

But If that's what you believe.  :shock: Then everything else you write must all be S.W.A.G., or other peoples writings and findings, and you've never really shot a rifle of any kind at multiple distances to see the correlation between line of sight and bullet trajectories.

 As we all know, gravity is a factor and the very moment a bullet leaves the muzzle of a gun, it is dropping towards the earth. For a bullet to strike "dead on" at 100 yds, or at ANY distance, it HAS TO cross the line of sight ONCE before it reaches it's point of impact at that distance. Then it crosses the line of sight a second time as it continues it's course towards the earth.  
OK, Instead of writing a book here. I'm just going to add a couple of links I just looked up on Google by typing in "line of sight and bullet trajectory" that have diagrams to verify this to other readers.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/October01.htm

(see trajectory) http://www.snipercountry.com/Compendium/Comp_T.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm

I believe I've made my point.

Unless you are such a steady hand that you are always shooting through the same hole, being off by just the bullet diameter itself at 25 yards is 2" at 100 yards. The best bet is always to sight in a gun at the max. range you intend to use it at.

Now here is somewhere that I completely agree with you, including the effect of MOA.
Except I think we aren't thinking alike on this.
This is the very reason I suggested sighting in at 25 YDS.
Over the years, I have been seen teaching many people how to shoot both rifle and handgun. I always start them off at very close distances. Hanguns, about 10 feet, rifles with iron sights @ 50 feet and scoped rifles @ 100 feet. Then once the shooter has perfected his/her sight picture and stediness of the weapon, they work out to greater distances from there.

If a person  takes a rifle of any kind and when using a bench and sandbags. Can't split a line on a target and put each bullet nearly into the same hole at 25 yds. That person either hasn't got the eyesight or the capabilities to do any better at 100 yds or beyond no matter the magnification of the scope he's using. Then that person can also forget about any type of decent group off hand.

Understand what I'm saying ??

Stay Safe,
Franz

 [/b]

[RandyWakeman]

But If that's what you believe.  :shock: Then everything else you write must all be S.W.A.G., or other peoples writings and findings, and you've never really shot a rifle of any kind at multiple distances to see the correlation between line of sight and bullet trajectories.

It seems it would have been more pleasing to you phrased this way: Mere observation of holes in paper at twenty five yards does not lend itself to precisely accurate shot placement at extended ranges, and the best bet is to always shoot / practice at the range you intend to hunt at. Better? Shoot at 25, 100 yards is a guess. Shoot at 100 yards, you know. All old news.

I don't think you caught the drift of my response. Sighting in at 25 yards, and using that observation to someone think you are zeroed in at 100 yards, or precisely where the bullet will land-- is flawed.

Having tested some 30 muzzleloaders this year alone, you can't begin to find any exactitude without a chronograph and accurate ballistic coefficients. That varies widely from rifle to rifle, and every single stated velocity I've ever read from a manufacturer is wrong. Not intentionally, but they have no idea of your specific gun, how you volumetrically measure powder, etc.

A black powder gun zeroed at 100 yards will kill (likely) most anything on hooves deader than snot at 25 yards, but the reverse in not always true. The 25 yards shots I take are just a means to an end-- to get me on the paper at 100 yards.

The same is true assuming where your bullets are going to land, based on a 100 yard sight in-- at 200 yards. You just have to do the work to know.

If you go here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm and scroll down the page, you'll see some 20 articles by me in the muzzleloading section.

The one entitled "Long Range Muzzleloading" addresses just that, in more detail.

[foxman]

Enjoyed the respones, but I guess my real question was : could I have a poor gas seal and be loosing some velocity that would cause the 6" drop.  I sighted at 50 yards and then was attempting the sight at 100.  I was using a vice at both distances.  I just "thought" the 6 inches was excessive.  I'll try another projecitile with a good sabot and see if I get the same results.   Thanks guys!

[RandyWakeman]

Unlikely. Powerbelts shoot very close to the same with the gas check pulled off.