Browning BPCR serial numbers

[TexasMac]

First, I want to thank those of you who sent me your serial numbers.  I know there are many more out there, so come on guys and gals, help me out and cough up the numbers for the sake of research.  Here’s what I’m trying to do.

Not only am I trying to determine the range of serial number used for the Browning Creedmore (Browning’s spelling) and which ones had a fixed front sight, but I’m also attempting to define when several changes were made to the 40-65 and 45-70 models.  The crown and extractor was redesigned around the end of 1996 (1st yr. of production).  The stock bolt hole and butt plate were changed sometime in 1998 (last year of production).  Since Browning did not keep good records of when the changes were made I need your help to figure it out.  I have spoken to several folks at Browning many time and picked their brains.  I imaging by now I’ve worn out my welcome but was successful in accumulating a bunch of data and material, but not enough to nail down the changes.

So, if you can see fit to send me you serial numbers on any model of Browning BPCRs along with the following details I’d sure appreciate it.  I’m only looking for information on the BPCR models, not the rest of Browning’s model 1885.  I will respond with some details you may not know about your rifle.

.45-90 Creedmore:
- full serial number
- type of front site (windage adjustable or fixed)
- stock bolt hole angle change – easily determined by the center-to-center hole spacing of you butt plate screws.  The original stock and butt plate has a spacing of 3.2” (8.2cm).  The redesigned stock and butt plate has a spacing of 4.05” (10.3cm).

.40-65 & .45-70 models:
- full serial number
- shape of the crown – there are two shapes, a counter-bored square-bottomed (90º step-down) crown or a concave or dished design also referred to as a “cereal bowl” crown
- stock bolt hole angle change – easily determined by the center-to-center hole spacing of you butt plate screws.  The original stock and butt plate has a spacing of 3.2” (8.2cm).  The redesigned stock and butt plate has a spacing of 4.05” (10.3cm).
- extractor – "If it’s not clear which extractor your rifle has it’s easy to determine without disassembling the action.  As the action is opened both extractor designs move out of their resting slot below the breech rim and push the cartridge back out of the chamber.  But, unless manually depressed, the old design extractor normally does not fully extend down and contact the top of the lowered breechblock.  It will move up and down with your finger when the action was fully open.  The redesigned extractor, after pushing the cartridge out, continues to move down until it comes in contact with the top of the breechblock.  It will not move and never blocks the rim when inserting a new cartridge.

Please note your serial number will be kept private.  I will not give it out to anyone else.  You can email the data to me at:  texasmac@ev1.net  or send me a private message via this form.  Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Wayne

[TexasMac]

A special thanks to the shooters that responded to my request for information on their Browning BPCRs.  I’m zeroing in on when some of the changes were made.  The recent information has also highlighted a possible problem and a change I was not aware of.

Since Browning started shipping the rifles I have noted and documented many comments on the design of the rear sight.  Most of these concerned an excessive amount of play or slack in the windage-base/ladder assembly in the fore and aft direction.  As most of you likely know steps to remove the slack were passed around the talk forums.  By the way, I know of many who did not worry about the slack and have not seen a negative effect on accuracy.  I’m certainly one of them, but then again, my shooting ability may very well overshadow any effect.  :>))

More recently a couple of comments about problems with the sight detent position have come to my notice.  Closely comparing sights shipped with earlier rifles to sights shipped with later rifles, it’s clear the diameter of the circular groove in the bottom of the windage barrel flange was reduced.  I might add that I have not had problems with the older sights on my rifles.  I’d like to get comments from any shooters who have experienced a problem with the sight staff detent, and solution that may have been implemented.

And again thanks to those that contributed info.  I hope more of you will see fit to contribute.  See my initial post requesting serial number and specific info on all Browning BPCRs.

Regards,
Wayne
email: texasmac@ev1.net

[bikered]

Lost track of talk.shooters.com for a while.  Anyway, I have two Browning BPCRs. One in .40-65 (10933NP371) and the .45-70 (10624NP371).  I'm still hoping and looking for the .45-90 Creedmore.  Missed one at a gun show here in WA about a year ago.  The quest goes on........  Any info on the above two pieces will be appreciated.  I bought both of them NEW and therefore the original owner.  Thanks, ED

[TexasMac]

Ed, please read the 1st two messages of this thread concerning the type of muzzle crown, spacing of the butt plate screws and type of extractor you have (I just edited the section on the extractor to better describe the differences between the two).  I'd also like to know if you have had any problems with the rear sight detent position, and if so how did you fix it.

Send me the data for each serial number and I can tell you a little more about your rifles.  You can respond here, send me a private message or send me an email at texasmac@ev1.net.  Thanks a bunch.

Wayne

[bikered]

Wayne,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you.  I looked at both rifles.  Both have the concave muzzles; both have the same extractors, which do not move when the block is in the 'dropped' position; neither rifle has any kind of stamps or proof marks forward of the forearem.  I'm still looking for a Browning 1885 Creeedmore, .45-90.  Had a chance to snag one about 5 years ago.  I thought Browning would naturally be manufacturing them for longer than the 3-4 years they were building them!  Oh well, shoulda-coulda-woulda..............  ED

[TexasMac]

Ed, thanks a bunch.  By the way, when you get a chance can you measure the butt plate screws center-to-center hole spacing?  It will tell me if you have the original design stock or new design on your rifles.

I can tell you both rifles were manufactured in 1998, and you have already discovered that both have the new design extractor.

Browning only produced the 40-65 and 45-70 rifles during 1996 thru 1998.  The Creedmore (.45-90) model was only produced in limited numbers in late 1998.  Browning reported to me there were only 316 made.  So you can imagine the folks that own these are holding on to them.  If you find one you can plan on paying in the range of $2000 to $2500, and the price is goin up.  Thanks again.

Regards,
Wayne

[bikered]

Wayne,
Hole spacing on both rifles are 3.2".  Thanks again for the info/history of these two rifles.  Any word on whether or not Browning will be producing these pieces again?
Ed

[TexasMac]

Thanks Ed.  Your rifles have the original design stock with some rather thin wood where the stock bolt hole exits the rear of the stock, on the lower end just in front of the butt plate.  So just be a little more careful not to hit it on a hard surface or drop the rifle hard on the butt plate.  Some concerned folks have reinforced the stock by lining the hole with a thin-wall aluminum tube.  Epoxy or bedding compound can be used to cement the tube in place.

Over the last 3 years I've spoken to more than one manager at Browning/Winchester. They continue to say plans are in the works for more high-wall introductions, but they will not provide details.  I do know they have a good bit of parts inventory on hand from the standard model 1885s and the BPCRs including a bunch of Badger barrels.  I'd be surprised to see a standard offering but would expect to see limited introductions.  I certainly don't have any inside info concerning a reintroduction of the Creedmores version.  Thanks again.

Wayne

[EDG]

Wayne,
  Good engineering practice is to document each drawing change on the affected drawing with a new revision letter or number. (Before a change is made a change order is circulated for signatures.) For serial numbered items, the change order will usually detail the number at the change. In case of a problem the rifles should be traceable by serial number.  If you can reach a design engineer you might be able to get him/her to look up the changes on their work station.
 One thing I have noticed is Browning stamps the serial number after bluing of the receiver.
Ed

[TexasMac]

Hi Ed,
I sure appreciate the insight and suggestion.  Now all I have to do is locate a engineer within Browning.  I've requested the production/manufacturing flow the rifles go through .  If I'm successful in getting it I should know a lot more.

Say, how can you tell the serial numbers are stamped after the receiver is blued?

By the way, I passed through your neck of the woods a couple of times this weekend, on the the way from north Austin area to my deer lease in Mason.

Thanks and take care,
Wayne

[TexasMac]

I urge those of you who have not contacted me to send me an email with the info on your rifles.  Here's what I need again:
=============
.45-90 Creedmore: the questions are to determine the block of serial numbers issued and which rifles have the fixed front site.
- Full serial number
- Type of front site (windage-adjustable or fixed)

.40-65 & .45-70 models: the questions are mainly to establish when several changes to the rifles were implemented by Browning.
- Full serial number
- Shape of the muzzle crown – there are two shapes, a counter-bored square-bottomed (90º step-down) crown or a concave or dished design also referred to as a “cereal bowl” crown
- Butt plate screw spacing – the center-to-center hole spacing of the butt plate screws.  The original stock and butt plate has a spacing of 3.2” (8.2 cm).  The redesigned stock and butt plate has a spacing of 4.05” (10.3 cm).
- Extractor (original or redesigned) - If it’s not clear which extractor your rifle has it’s easy to determine by fully opening the action.  As the action is opened both extractor designs move out of their resting slot below the breech rim and push the cartridge back out of the chamber.  But, unless manually depressed, the old design (original) extractor normally does not fully rotate down and tends to block the rim when inserting a new cartridge.  It can be moved up and down with your finger when the action was fully open.  The redesigned extractor, after pushing the cartridge out, continues to rotate down until it comes in contact with the top front edge of the breechblock.  It may move up and down slightly but never enough to block the rim when inserting a new cartridge.

All rifles:
- I’d like to get comments from any shooters who have experienced a problem with the rear sight staff detent, and solution that may have been implemented.
- Finally, is there a barrel stamp on your rifle and the left side of the breechblock (when the action is open)?  In addition to the normal manufacturing and caliber information stamped on the barrels, some rifles have two block letters stamped on the left side of the barrel, just in front of the receiver and directly above the forearm wood.  There’s no need to remove the forearm.  It’s just above the corner of the forearm where it contacts the receiver.  The same stamp should be on the breechblock.  If your rifle is so stamped let me know what the letters are.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards,
Wayne
aka: TexasMac
email: texasmac@ev1.net

[bikered]

Does anyone know if 1885 highwall receivers (in the white) are available from Browning/Winchester, or any other company?
Thanks,
ED

[TexasMac]

Ed, I know Browning/Winchester will not sell 1885 receivers alone.  Even when the 1885 line was in production Browning would not sell a receiver alone, even to a gunsmith.  You had to buy it with the barrel installed in the desired caliber.  

Some of the smaller "custom" BPCR suppliers will sell receivers in the white.  I don't know which ones but you might start with one of the better known ones such as S.D. Meacham Tool & Hardware Co. Inc., 1070 Angel Ridge Rd., Peck, ID 83545, Ph/Fax: 208-486-7171  www.meachamrifles.com

Wayne