Model 1878 45-70 Trap Door

[Dixie Dude]

I was recently given a Model 1878 45-70 Trap Door Springfield or Springfield replica.  The only marking I found was on the top of the trap door that said Model 1878.  I have found no other markings on this gun.  A 45-70 cartridge will slide in.  It was rusty and the hammer doesn't work.  I took it apart and it is apparently missing a spring to make the hammer work.  The trigger works.  Also, it seems the firing pin is either fixed or is rusted to the trap door and doesn't move.  Is this what it is supposed to do?  I was given this along with 3 other guns that were manufactured in the 60's and 70's.  One was a bolt .410 Stevens shotgun no longer made.  One was a Bolt action Savage .22 WMR no longer made.  One is a topper H&R 12 gauge.  H&R manufactured a model 178 45-70 Trap Door Springfield replica during this time frame.  The guy that gave me these were in his parents basement for years and they belonged to his grandfather.  All were rusty, but I have got the .22 WRM and the Bolt .410 to function.  The H&R 12 ga Topper's hammer is rusted in the half cock position and I have some Liquid Wrench on it now trying to free it up.  Do you guys think the Model 1878 is probably a replica made during the 60's or 70's?  Also, were can I obtain a spring to make the hammer fire?  I would love to get all these weapons working and restored even if they aren't worth much. 

[Dixie Dude]

If no-one knows the answers to some of my questions.  Do you know a forum where I might could get the answers?

[quickdtoo]

See the M999 sticky, Bill Goforth is a knowledgeable H&R Inc resource, we have a couple here members here that are very knowledgeable also, but they don't come by regularly.

Tim

[Dixie Dude]

Thanks Quickdoo.  Which forum is the sticky on?

[quickdtoo]

This one, top thread above this thread .

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/board,135.0.html

[Dixie Dude]

I didn't see anything on Bill Goforth.  This was talking about a pistol.  I have a 45-70 trapdoor Model 1878.  Don't know anything about it.  Took it apart and is missing a hammer spring.  I think it is an H&R made in the early 70's. 

[quickdtoo]

I refer to his name at the beginning of the reply and there are links to his site and a site he answers question about H&R firearms also listed.

Tim

I'm bumping this one to the top, just did some research on the Model 999 Sportsman, here are some details posted by Bill Goforth on another forum. It appears he's updated his website since that reply was made, I made the correction.

Tim


http://thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=28371&highlight=model+999


SPORTSMAN DOUBLE ACTION MODEL 999 LARGE FRAME TOP BREAK . ----------1932-1952
Large frame double action top break revolver; Caliber 22 rimfire (short, long & long rifle) cylinder capacity 9 rounds, 22 Winchester Rim Fire (WRF)cylinder capacity 7 rounds; Safety rim cylinder; blue finish only; barrel length 6 inches (ribbed); Automatic cylinder stop; Sights: rear adjustable for windage only, Three different front sights used, full Blade, Partridge type & Partridge type pinned to barrel top rib, all non-adjustable; Finger rest trigger guard; One piece oversized checkered Walnut grips (birds head grip frame shape, Rice frame); frame mounted firing pin, hammer face is flat. Cylinder release is long pivoting lever on right side of frame (there are two different version of this). Serial numbered in its own series from 01 up to at least 89761 by the end of 1939. Starting in 1940 letter codes were used.
Early production until about 1933 the letter code “D” was used to denote double action
First Variation; round heavy weight ribbed barrel with Blade non-adjustable front sight ----1932- to before April 18,1933
Second Variation; adjustable front sight------------1933 (after 4-18-1933)-
Third Variation; firing pin moved to hammer-------------------------1934
Fourth Variation; three inch barrel was offered----------------------1935
Fifth Variation; two patent dates marked on cylinder (before there was only one)---1936 (after 3-17)-1937
Sixth Variation; top of barrel markings moved to right side of barrel---------------1937-1939
Seventh Variation; 22 WFR caliber dropped, 3 inch barrel dropped--------------1940-1941
Eight Variation; one piece over size plastic grips are standard, limited production during WWII years----1942-1952
VALUE: 100%=$425 60%=$195 Add 15% premium for 1st Variation; %0% for 22WRF caliber; 30% for 3” barrel (scarce)

MODEL 999 SPORTSMAN SECOND MODEL (NEW FRAME)-------1953-1972
Top Break, Double Action, 22 Long Rifle Caliber, 9 shot, Blue Finish, Barrel Length 6 inches, Adjustable Sights
VALUE: NIB:=$425, 95%=$365, 60%=$195

MODEL 999 SILVER SPORTSMAN--------------------------1963-1966
Top Break, Double Action, 22 Long Rifle Caliber, 9 shot, Chrome Finish, Barrel Length 6 inches only, serial number letter codes Z, AA, AB only
VALUE: (very seldom seen) 100%=$450 60%=$325

MODEL 999 SPORTSMAN THIRD MODEL (TRANSFER BAR IGNITION)-----------1973-1986
Top Break, Double Action, 22 Long Rifle Caliber, 9 shot, Blue Finish, Barrel Length 4 & 6 inches (4 inch not added until 1979, Adjustable Sights. In 1979 Only the Model name was advertised as Model 999 Automatic-Ejecting and it was offered in that year only in 32 S&W Long caliber, 6 shot.
VALUE: NIB:=$425, 95%=$350, 60%=$175

MODEL 999 SPORTSMAN I OF 999 (TRANSFER BAR IGNITION)------1979-1986
Engraved with Fitted Wood Case, Top Break, Double Action, 22 Long Rifle Caliber, 9 shot, Blue Finish, Barrel Length 6 inches, Adjustable Sights VALUE: Collector value only if unfired, with all original tags, manuals, commemorative medallion, wooden presentation case and cardboard box;
100%=$700+ if in other than described condition it is valued as the Model 999 3rd Model plus 20% premium for engraving.

bill
__________________
Author:
Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works 1871-1993
H&R Arms Company 1871-1986 (due 2009)
available from www.gunshowbooks.com

website;
http://iverjohnsoncollector.x10hosting.com/AskMe.Htm

[Dixie Dude]

I said 1878 but it is an 1873 Springfield.  I found out when I cleaned it up that it was made in 1884.  I have ordered some parts to get it into firing order.  Guy on the phone where I ordered parts said if I got it cleaned up and firing it would be worth $800-$1,000.  Not bad for a free gun.  I need to find some lead 45 cal bullets and load it to trapdoor levels.  The same guy said lead would be better as the jacketed bullets would wear it out fast.  They were used as late as WWII on navy ships to fire ropes from one ship to another when at sea to transfer supplies.  They were made from the 1870's until the 1890's until the 30-40 Kraig and later the 3006 took over.  They were then transfered to national guard units and to the navy for the guns to fire the ropes.  Guard units used them through WWI and after the war were given surplus 1903 Springfields.  Interesting history.  The firing Mechanism on the 1873 Springfield was the same as the black powder muzzle loaders during the Civil War.  The history of these weapons lasted 80 plus years.  I guess the only other weapons to last a long time in service is the modern M-16 and the 1903 Springfield 30-06. 

[PHATINJUN]

Dixie Dude all this is blah blah blah blah without pictures Kurt

[torpedoman]

The 45-70 caliber is used by the navy to get lines from one ship to another but not the springfield rifle. we used a smoothbore gun and fired a steel rod with a small piece of 21 thread(heavy twine) attached (bleach bottle on the rod so the other guy could get out of the way)the twine was used to pull over heavier lines.

[Dixie Dude]

Will try to get some pictures.  Don't know about the lines, just what the guy told me, that up until WWII they used it to fire over lines to each other on ships using blank 45-70 cartridges.

[a4beltfed2000]

make sure that you shoot on black powder shells in that 45/70 and I would make them extremely light loads. I would also  does your 84 have the bayonet or the buffington?

I would look at www.trapdoors.com they have complete guns and parts for sale....

[Dixie Dude]

I do not have a bayonet, but will order one if I get it firing.  Yes, I am aware of the weakness of the trapdoor and will use BP loads when I fire it. 

[PHATINJUN]

I had also heard that they were given to the indians for utility hunting weapons when they were being phased out .I have seen many of the complete Line gun kits sold over the yrs on the the gun sites never seen one this old but I don't know why they wouldn't of used them in that time period most of the modern one have been nickle plated. Are these the same guns H&R put out in there 100 yr collector additions in 1971 they were patterned after the 1871 Springfield I think.Kurt

[Dixie Dude]

At first I thought it was a H&R, but after cleaning it up, I saw the scroll on the stock with the inspectors initials and 1884 underneath.  It is the original stock.  Has a couple of splits in it but not bad.  It is hard to make out with my eyes, but with light and my reading glasses I couldn't hardly believe it.  If I can get it to fire BP loads, it is worth the effort.  I will have about $75 in replacement parts when I get through.  Main spring, ejector, ejector spring and pin.  Everything else works.  Main spring was missing for some reason.  Someone said it could have been salvaged for parts or it broke and was never replaced.