Author Topic: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?  (Read 1260 times)

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Offline DennyRoark

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What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« on: November 14, 2009, 02:50:25 AM »
Took my rebuild project to the range yesterday to sight in using the .45 T/C Maxi-hunters.  While on the bench, I noticed a distinct click right before ignition when using the set trigger.  This became a little annoying at first, then detrimental, as it was causing me to anticipate the bang and flinch (mostly close my eyes).  She kicks pretty good w/90 gr at that load.  The rifle was an assembled kit that I picked up at a decent price last winter.  Quickly found out the barrel was a wreck.  Found an old, never shot 4 digit kit barrel and began the quest to restore the rifle.  The lock and stock came off a "newer" model.  After examining the workings while cleaning, I think the sear hits the half cock notch.  My old original was not made this way.  The half cock is now made as a 2 piece assembly.  not sure how to describe it any better.  Anyone have any experience with this newer style lock?  It definitely causes accuracy problems, as it causes the lock to "jump" as it goes past the half cock.  Any thoughts or obsevations are greatly appreciated in advance.

Thanx
Denny Roark
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Offline necchi

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 05:39:36 AM »
This is a common trouble with the T/C and Lyman coil spring locks, their basically the same.

 Ok, let's look at the inside of the lock. There is a small piece in there called the "Fly Detent". It fits in a hole in the tumbler under that plate, and looks like a small pointed arrow that moves freely between the full and half-cock notch in the tumbler. With the hammer at full cock you can wiggle it with your finger back and forth a little. It's job is to allow the trigger sear to "skip" past the half-cock notch and let the hammer fully drop.

The problem and the fix;
 A couple things can happen here. One, the fly and the area around it can get dirty, rusty or gummed up with old lube and crud. Two, that same area can be just plain dry of lube. Both can affect the fly from moving freely.
 Third and MOST COMMON, The 2 screws that hold that plate on come loose. If they are the tinniest bit loose the fly WILL "TIP" and jam the lock just below full fall of the hammer,
(alot of guy's think at this point they have ignition trouble with caps or nipple, because nothing happens when the hammer drops,with repeated cocking and fireing the sear will finaly skip past and let it fall, thus ignition)
,,or as in your case the sear just has to work harder with spring pressure to wiggle past the fly causing that minute pause before the hammer falls.
 Take the lock apart, let the hammer down all the way to relax the spring, take a needle nose and grab the spring guide by the tip and push it back to disengage. Now take those two screw out and lift the plate, take care here to NOT lose the Fly Detent, too make it short, just clean everything up in there, lube and reassemble, and be sure to re-tighten those two screws really well.
 When I do this, I polish all the flat surfaces with a fine India stone to remove all burrs and make the bearing surfaces smooth for less resistance.
 Some times the fly and that plate are worn too much and it's time to use the T/C warrenty,,just contact T/C, send it to them and they'll fix it, free, and send it back,,6-8 weeks. All yer out is the money to mail it and time.
 

 
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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 10:24:05 AM »
Thanks, necchi!  One more question...is the "fly" supposed to be a little bit (maybe .025" or a little more) longer than the piece it sits on top of?  It looks like a lot of wear on the tumbler or what ever it's called, at the half cock notch.  When I polished my old one (30 years ago), I don't remember the "fly" being there.  I'm not ready to tear the lock apart yet, as getting the main spring back in can be a expletive deleted!  A trip back to T/C may be in order (after deer season).
Denny Roark
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Offline necchi

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 06:58:19 PM »
Ya, it's sposta be a little longer, that's what helps it skip over the half cock.
Good luck deer huntin, hope it don't "Hang" on ya when it's not suposta, if nothin else tighten them screws, if they turn in so much as a 1/16 of a turn ,they where loose!, and a drop of gun oil,,,
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Offline Walks with Fire

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2009, 01:49:24 PM »
The hole that the fly fits into can become out of round with extended use; if that's the case then you need to send it to TC for replacement. Make sure the 2 screws  on the internal cover are not loose or down too tight. Do not polish anything on the tumbler, fly or change the notch in any way. Right before season is not a good time to be learning about TC lock inards; but if you take it apart be certain you know how to get it back together. I can do it in my sleep now but the first time was not easy. They are not hard to tune once you learn it but there is a bit of a learning curve. That click in the set trigger is supposed to be there. The screw above the trigger gaurd adjusts the trigger pull on the fire or front trigger. If that fry is wobbling in it seat it's not right; if it's not wobbling in there then it probably just needs cleaned out real well.

Offline necchi

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 02:28:53 PM »
Hey Walks,,your right there is a learning curve.
 I never had trouble with those screws being over tight,,and yes that seem's to be the trouble when they plain ware-out, the hole in the tumbler get's over size, also the hole in that plate for the,,"tumbler pivot or axel"(?) gets over size too and the entire thing wobbles around.
 When I polish them things I do the flat sides of the tumbler, the inside of the cover plate and the inside of the lock plate itself. Always carefull to stay away from the pivot pins though.
 I guess in 25 years I've only had one that was so far gone it couldn't be cleaned up, polished and tuned, and it's one I just recently got in on trade,,
 Sad part is there are alot of guy's, not Denny, he's got experiance, but there are folks that are afraid to even take the lock out of the stock! Gadds! For some reason they think it should work forever with no care at all  :(
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Offline Walks with Fire

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 12:06:37 PM »
Necchi;

I still remember the first time I took a TC lock apart and I also remember I had a hard time getting it to work after that. I have done it so many times now over the years that I wouldn't shoot a new lock without my tune up process. I have done some things that I can't mention because of liability issues that really get those locks humming. In fact; the newer model TC flint lock is an outstanding lock! Mine are fast; long flint life; outstanding sparks and very reliable. I have not had a failure to flash with one of these new style lock in probably nearly 10 lbs. of powder. I did not like the old style hammer and I also think the fizzens have improved a great deal as well.

I really like the TC guns. Lots of people spend tons of money on custom built guns and I just pick up the used TC guns and tune em up. They shoot good once you get the creepy crawlys out of them and for a few hundred bucks ya have a heck of a shooter and they don't look too bad either. I swap out a couple springs in the lock; get the pan fitting tight to the fizzen so the pan powder won't spill out; glass bed the channel and tangs and check for any constrictions in the barrel which occur were the sights, under lugs or ribs are attached (because of tool pressure) and fire lap if needed. They are always tack drivers with tune up; they really are very well made barrels but they need tuned up sometimes to perform at their peak. I have had a couple problem children that needed special attention. My favorite ball rifle is a TC PA Hunter that is named Eureka from the day I found it's weakness. This particular barrel has grooves that are way too narrow for a ball gun so ball size and patching materials are critical. It was easily avoided with a plastic patch which is like a sabot for roundballs. It also had some constriction at the underlug and the patent breech was real rough and held fouling real bad. Polished up and never misses a beat.


Offline Forestclimber

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 12:46:52 PM »
Send the lock to T/C.  It's under warranty,  You will get fast service.

Offline DennyRoark

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 02:56:26 AM »
Walks With Fire, the click I get is not in the set trigger, it is in the main trigger after the set trigger is set.  The main then has a distinct click if I pull it real slow.  I think the sear stops at the half cock notch and it doesn't take much at all after that!  For an inexperienced shooter, this could be dangerous!  Just an annoyance (and possible accurracy problem) to me at this point.  Thanks for the heads up on the wobbling fly.  I will check that the next time I shoot.  I have taken a lock apart and polished it, but it's been nearly 30 years.  Like Necchi siad, I only polish the flat metal to metal surfaces, never the contact points on the sear, fly, etc.  Another note, this thing seems to have a lot of creep when it is "set".  I think I may play around with the trigger adjustmant later today to see if that changes anything.

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Denny Roark
Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals)
The Second Amendment...the one that makes all the others possible
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

Offline DennyRoark

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 05:23:20 AM »
Well, in my original post, I wrote after the rifle had been cleaned and reassembled.  Went and got her out and started checking all the things listed in the above posts and this is what I found:  The click is in the trigger release "sear" which only engages during "trigger set".  With out disassembly of the trigger, there appears to be a worn in notch which engages only when set trigger is activated.  A little oil and screw adjustment was able to get rid of most of it, as well as the creep.  It will go to T/C after season.  As for the lock, I found the 2 cover plate screws were loose a little.  Apparently this has happened before, as someone marred the one screw head slot.  Also, the fly has some play in it.  It does wobble a little but doesn't affect firing at this point.  Lock will go back to T/C as well.  This rifle had to have been shot ALOT, as I put around 20,000 rounds thru my first one over 20 plus years and never had eithe one of these issues.  Let this be a lesson to all...ALL used muzzleloaders that are listed "as only fired a few times if at all" should be THOROUGHLY inspected.  I got took to the cleaners on this one!  The second barrel I got was made in the late 70's and was never fired.  I made sure I had an inspection clause before I bought it, and it IS a shooter.  A very LARGE thank you to necchi and Walks With Fire for helping me figure this thing out!
Denny Roark
Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals)
The Second Amendment...the one that makes all the others possible
I have no problems with vegetarians...I eat them regularly-Ted Nugent
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

Offline spooked

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 12:53:27 PM »
Very interesting, glad ya got it going..I traded my .36 cherokee off today :'(
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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2009, 02:31:18 PM »
Quote
Very interesting, glad ya got it going..I traded my .36 cherokee off today

I feel your pain, Spooked...I've wanted one for 30+ years now.  That's what this project was all about, replacing my original Hawken that I pretty much wore out.  Those first kits were a bear!  Near a hundred hours (not counting the nightly clean-up of mama's kitchen)with a draw file,a bondo tool, and a bottle of Homer Formby's.  Totally a labor of love!
Denny Roark
Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals)
The Second Amendment...the one that makes all the others possible
I have no problems with vegetarians...I eat them regularly-Ted Nugent
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

Offline spooked

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 06:02:01 PM »
What i did was trade my Cherokee to a fella whose dad and brother squirrel hunt
with him and they have .36 tc's, got a One year old Crockett .32 in exchange which he took exceptionally good care of...I hated to trade it, but I'm glad that someone who'll put it to use got it..Only thing is I have my original Cherokee  .32, with  an accessory .45 barrel...had 'em all but never intended to shoot the .36...kinda bittersweet about breakin up the set...Got my eye a watching for a decent Tc Hawkin in .45 locally...Sounds to me like you shot more black in one year than I have  shot  in the last 20.. ;D To get back on topic I have a CVA squirrel rifle and it has problems with the set trigger ???..going to have to take it to some one smarter than me on them.. :(
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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 04:15:42 AM »
Yeah Spooked,  back in "The Day" I used to shoot competitions, 2000 rnds a year wasn't uncommon.  I have NO experience with CVA workings, but here's a recent thread on traditions locks...http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,186795.0.html...Start a new post and I'm sure you'll get a lot of helpful replies.  Tons of knowledge and helpful people at Greybeards!  One of these days I hope to pick up a .32 to get my young grandson started.  He actually shot the Mini-30 (with our help) at 3 years old and LOVED it.  For those who may be appalled at this, he was basically between me and the rifle (butt on my shoulder) thinking he was holding it.  I had total muzzle control!
Denny Roark
Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals)
The Second Amendment...the one that makes all the others possible
I have no problems with vegetarians...I eat them regularly-Ted Nugent
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

Offline spooked

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 06:13:38 AM »
Thanks for the info..I for one am glad to see some one prime a youngsters interest in firearms and target-shooting hunting..one of the earliest memories i have is of my father letting me fire an ole 67 winchester while on a "squirrel hunt" When i was that age. Went by there recently and realized that we were only 2to 250 yds from the house..The old white oak i shot is still standing almost 60 yrs. later.. ;D
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Offline necchi

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Re: What's wrong with my T/C Lock?!?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 06:58:55 AM »
  He actually shot the Mini-30 (with our help) at 3 years old and LOVED it.  For those who may be appalled at this,,

Way ta go!! I started Dustin at 5,,he was a regular at the gunrange at 7. Folks admired the youth loading and shooting his own .50 ml, and would offer their gun for him to shoot with permission. I remember one time when his ma came to pick him up, he said "I got to shoot an AR-15 308 Bull barrel! It was a Osama Bin Laden target and I got him right between the eyes!!",, She just gave me the look,,but to her credit she never dis-approved. Now at 16 he's putting venison on her table.
He's hooked.
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