Author Topic: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC  (Read 695 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« on: November 14, 2009, 02:30:49 PM »
I attended this auction today but did not walk out with the French Swivel gun-I had written down a top bid I would make and it went one more bid increment over that.  Anyway it was a worthwhile trip because there were a bunch of other interesting antiques I got to look at, many related to George Washington.  I also got to take good pix of the cannon as well as more measurements than I had before.  This is the cannon that Boom J pictured here recently.  If anyone cares, the high bidder will be paying about $16K, which includes bidder's premium.  Tax will be on top of that.

Note that this cannon had soldered-on half-rimbases, and one is missing.  These were put on to position the tube in its correct mount, I believe.  The cast iron carriage it is on is very cute but of course not correct, it was made up long ago for display.

Maybe BoomJ bought it?

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums49/?action=view&current=81305762.pbw

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 03:00:51 PM »
16K ? good gravey miss mavey ....

No crest ? no dolfs ?

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 03:41:11 PM »
Nice looking cannon, at that price I hope it's new home will be indoors, do you think that was cast in the 18th C.?

I am thinking early 19th C. could you make out any of the engraving on the muzzle?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 03:46:53 PM »
This is the cannon that Boom J pictured here recently. If anyone cares, the high bidder will be paying about $16K, which includes bidder's premium. Tax will be on top of that. 
Maybe BoomJ bought it?


Hey, Cannonmn, that's a grand less than the Strong 8-gauge, I wish I would of been there, just me and my checkbook.
Truth be told, to own that cannon would cost me a lot more than 16 grand plus tax, because as soon as I pulled into the driveway towing a u-haul trailer (that gun could easily fit in my Explorer but the trailer sounds better) with that gun strapped to the bed, and she saw me through the window she was glaring out of, the divorce proceedings would have already been put into play before I had the parking brake on.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 08:20:05 PM »
Yes it is 18th C.  The capture inscription on muzzle reads "Taken by Earl Howe on June 1 1794."  Boom and I have both made some posts about that famous battle.  I have not yet found any documentation on this particular model of French swivel gun but I have one example with a different cascabel, and no capture inscription, then there's this one.  These typically only had sparse trunnion marks, weight on one trunnion and serial or registry number on the other.  I have not yet determined what "RM" on either trunnion means-perhaps initials for French words meaning "rimbase modified."  If anyone speaks French, please see if that makes sense.  The reason there aren't more of these I think is that when the French came out with the much heavier one-pounder swivel gun M1786, they threw these little guys in the pot to get some of the bronze required.  But obviously they were still in use to some extent in 1794.

I would bet a considerable sum of money that a certain English dealer I know beat me out of this on a phone bid, since it was a phone bid that got it.  The piece would be worth a lot more in the UK with that capture inscription than it would be in the US.  In the UK having that inscription is like a cannon here having an inscription "Taken by Gen. _____ on July 3, 1863."  I have no doubt that once he gets that to the UK he'll be able to sell it for at least a few times what he has in it.  He deals with the upper crust of collectors on that side of the pond.

I've made something of a study of French bronze swivels, the "Cannon-appearing" type that is, and have documented two distinct types in addition to the already-well-documented M1786.

Again, Gilkerson's book is a good ref for swivels, but like all 20th C. authors of works on naval ordnance, he has missed two of the three principal French swivel cannon models.  The modern author everyone uses for reference on this subject is Jean Boudriot, whose books are only in French and cost hundreds if you can find one.  He also missed the two earlier, smaller models of French bronze swivel cannon, probably because the documentation on them was lost during the French Revolution.  All we have left to go on, until someone finds some mention of them in some old French ordnance book, is a very few surviving examples, which (may I say "until I came along?") were not recognized as French swivels.

If you're interested, here's a link to my brief dissertation on the larger French M1756 bronze swivel.  I recently spotted another one in the "Brown Catalog" and that info is in the CMH board post following the one linked here:

http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~milita8/cmh/member/member.cgi/read/3955

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 03:19:41 AM »
Ok ,well that explians it . :o
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline D Boone

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 04:51:17 AM »
I live in NC, so I am curious, where was that auctioned?  Whats the story behind it?  Would love to know what a bunch of stuff connected to Washington was doing here. 

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 05:15:16 AM »
Welcome D.Boone .

I grew up in NC . where do you live ? I'm betting somewhere around Hickory .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 01:49:55 PM »
For the gentleman who wants to know more about the auction that took place in Ashville, here you go:

http://www.brunkauctions.com/search/searchresults.php?searchtype=browsecurrent

The stuff an auction house sells is not necessarily from nearby-it often is, but it can come from anywhere.  For example, a lot of stuff in this auction was from the estate of a doctor from Huntsville, AL.

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 02:29:37 PM »
Well it far exceeded their expectations!

http://www.brunkauctions.com/search/searchresults.php

"Estimate: $3,000 - $6,000"
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: French Swivel Gun auctioned in NC
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 07:12:46 AM »
Here's the same model of French swivel, but a variation with a different cascabel.  This one is obviously adapted for bolting on a tiller.  I have never seen one of this model complete with tiller.  I've only seen three of this model in fact, mine shown in the slideshow here, the one in the auction, and one mounted on a steel field carriage which was sold by Val Forgett Jr. in about 1999.  The last one was the only one I've seen with maker's marks, and wouldn't you know, I can't retrieve my photos of it from the ancient computer they are on.

All this raises a question in my mind-most of the French swivel guns of the various models are unmarked as to maker and date, although most all have trunnion marks for registry number and weight.  Could that mean that the non-maker-marked examples were cast at French government foundries?

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/myartillery/my%20artillery3/French%20swivels/?action=view&current=c3e317d0.pbw