made mistake, need advice

[newdad]

i started reloading some 45-70 rounds last week with the lee loader. the first 20 i done turned out fine, shot fine , everything looked good. i had 5 empty brass and decided to reload them yesterday so i went through the process and then decided to crimp them slighty using the lee loader. i had crimped some of the first batch with no problems, but got too carried away this time and my cartridge overall length is quite a bit shorter than the load data in the book shows. now for the big question, can i shoot these safely in my gun, what are the effects of too short C.O.L,  i know for sure the load is not anywhere near compressed on the powder so thats not an issue.

[Savage]

No one can say if these rounds would be safe to fire or not. As I'm sure you know, the bullet seated deeper into the case reduces case capacity and causes an increase in pressures. Now if it's only a few thousands of an inch shorter, it would likely be ok. Even that's a crap shoot depending on numerous factors. The only sane advice I can give you, is to pull and reseat the bullets to the proper depth. Depending on the load and the type of firearm you're shooting these rounds in, you may not need much of a crimp anyway. Just a thought-----------. Be safe!
Savage

[Dezynco]

Unless you have seated the bullet WAY down into the case and compressed the powder, the only real problem will be accuracy.  I'd use them for plinking and be more careful next time.

[Savage]

Unless you have seated the bullet WAY down into the case and compressed the powder, the only real problem will be accuracy.  I'd use them for plinking and be more careful next time.

Compressed or not, case capacity has been reduced. At this point we don't know the powder type/weight, bullet weight/construction, COL, or even the firearm to be used. I(t is irresponsible to suggest the OP fire the ammo.
Savage

[newdad]

thanks for the advice fellas, the powder is imr 4198 at a starting load using a remington 405 gr bullet. i dont have them in front of me right now but if i remember correctly C.O.L should be around 2.54 using this bullet and the 5 loads in question are around 2.46-2.48 the pressure increase is what has me concerned, i shoot these from a nef handi rifle.

[stimpylu32]

Newdad

With that little difference in COL and with that powder you will not have a problem .

Savage had a very valid point though about not knowing the COL & powder , so when in doubt always check first .

stimpy 

[newdad]

thaks stimpy, i would have just pulled them and reworked them, but im just getting started in reloading and havent purchased a bullet puller yet, so thats why i was asking if it was safe to shoot them.

[Dezynco]

The 45-70 is such a large case that such a small difference in overall length will make very little difference.  It's when you start messing with cartridges that are much higher pressure that you can get into issues by bullet depth.  I don't know this for sure, but you probably risk an increase in pressure by seating the bullet further out (closer to the rifling).
Does anyone know for sure?

[revbc]

newdad,

I assume you have a press, so take your die out, put the cartridge in the shellholder, run it up through the die hole, lightly pinch the bullet with a pair of diagonal cutting pliers, hold in position while you pull up on the lever.  Out comes the bullet

Bobby

[Ron T.]

The very short amount of difference in the total overall cartridge length using STARTING LOADS is, in my humble opinion, meaningless!

If you were at or near MAXIMUM loads in those 5 cartridge, then that would be a different story, but since this is NOT the case, if I were presented with a similar problem, I'd fire the 5 rounds and stop worrying.

However, what "SAVAGE" wrote about safety is absolutely true... and to be absolutely SAFE, you should pull the bullets, dump out (and save) the powder, resize the cases (after removing the primer punch from the sizing die) and resize the mouth of the case... and reload the cartridges.

Again, however... comparing the difference in overall length (which is very small) together with the fact you loaded only a "starting load" of IMR4198, I seriously doubt that there's any safety issue involved with firing those rounds out of your rifle.

I'd recommend you stop crimping the rounds altogether or use an EXTREMELY light crimp... since the normal amount of "grab" the case-mouth puts on the base of the bullet is usually more than enough to keep the bullets from sliding "up" in the case during to recoil.

And even if they DO slide up a little, so what?  If they slide up too far, the firearm's action will REFUSE to close... and so, at that time, simply remove the "too long" cartridge, press the bullet back down in the case a little and give it another "try"!!!  No "biggie"...!  If the bullet is loose enough in the mouth of the case to slide OUT a little, it will slide IN a little just as easily.

Reloading newbies who put too much crimp on cartridges that should have NEVER been crimped AT ALL are one of the most common causes of "problems" with reloads in firearms.  It is hard to determine just how much extra high pressure that puts on the firearm's chamber due to the EXTRA HEAVY CRIMP which causes the bullet to RESIST MOVING... and to continue to remain in place rather than moving on up into the chamber's forcing cone, engaging the rifling and then moving on down and out of the barrel... and all the while, the chamber pressure is building up higher and HIGHER behind the bullet!!!

If you buy a bullet puller, by the RCBS model that looks like a hammer... it works great & is easy to use... and it isn't expensive (less than $20).  It "saves" your bullet and powder... and both items can be used over again together with the cartridge case and primer.  As a result, the ONLY thing you lose when you have to "pull-a-load" is your time.

Good thinking to ask the question as whether or not to pull the bullet or shoot it out.  In this case, I honestly believe you're safe to go ahead and shoot the bullet OUT due to the fact the overall length hasn't changed that much and your load is a "minimum" load and, therefore, not creating any high pressures with which you must be concerned.

However, if in "doubt"... buy the RCBS Bullet Puller and pull the bullets on those 5 cases.  It is ALWAYS better to be "SAFE" than "SORRY".   


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

[Savage]

Ok, the information provided, and the minimal amount of bullet "Setback" shouldn't cause any dangerous pressure problems. It's just not good practice to get in the habit of ignoring out of spec rounds. In my rather limited and long ago experiences with cartridges of this bore and case capacity, accuracy was better with a moderate crimp than uncrimped rounds. The relatively slow powder just seems to burn more uniformly with the increased bullet pull. Any round that the bullet is easily setback, or pulled with hand pressure needs a crimp. For a single shot rifle, it shouldn't need much. For a magazine rifle a moderate crimp is desirable to prevent setback durring cycling of the action. A good heavy crimp is necessary if the rounds are being fired in a revolver. The OP did catch the problem and inquire about it. That's a good sign!
Good shooting!!
Savage

[newdad]

thanks to everyone for taking the time to give advice, it is appreciated. the reason i was crimping the round was when i fist started loading these, the bullet seemed really loose in the mouth of the case. loose enough that i could push them in by hand after they had already been seated. if i was just using these to shoot paper in the backyard i wouldnt have messed with crimping, but i planned to carry these hunting and was afraid they might get banged around in a coat pocket or something and the bullet end up being pushed way back up inside the case. i do own a press, but havent bought dies or shellholder for this caliber yet, so ive just been using one of the little classic lee loaders to stuff the cases. and yes, a bullet puller is on my to buy list.

[Savage]

Sounds like you're on the right track! You are wise to crimp your loads if the bullets are loose in the cases. The Lee Classic loader will crimp ok, just doesn't always size the case enough to hold the bullet properly. Good luck on your hunt!
Savage