Author Topic: insurance guns  (Read 1205 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rampa room artillery

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
insurance guns
« on: November 27, 2009, 02:35:17 PM »
 Hey, I am looking for info on insurance guns of boats during and after the civil war in the va. waters. my understanding is that they were used and boat from the government to lower the cost of the insurance for the ship and cargo. but after they no longer gave  these discounts the guns were just sent over the side of the ship, i have talked to many watermen working clam tongs on there boats and there are many stories of them bring guns up and then throwing them back over the side because it was to heavy to handle and even ones that almost sank a 43ft work boat.

 anyone have any info??   


rick bryan
  NSSA

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2009, 02:47:35 PM »
The only insurrance guns onboard ship I'm aware of were quite abit older than that . Small little guns of the VOC .    

Gary

ETA If anyone does pull up somethingsage up that threatens to sink the boat  RISK IT , OR dump it back in with GPS numbers memorized ? copied ....... carved into his arm ...whatever . They will do much better than digging for clams .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 03:03:07 PM »
Lloyd's of London, the biggest marine underwriter there was for a long time, required in their policies that all merchantmen to be armed.  The first thing that was determined in admiralty court in case of the loss of a ship or cargo was the armament of the ship in terms of number of swivels and number of carriage guns.  I've read a few records of proceedings of these courts and that's always at the beginning.  I seriously doubt if anything with some salvage value would be deep-sixed unless required to save the ship in bad weather.

Insurance guns were used aboard US merchantmen at least up until the Civil War.  Many of the guns were English but Cyrus Alger would cast any kind you wanted, any kind of muzzle, any kind of cascabel, rifled, smoothbore, I've seen more different combinations marked Alger than there are species in the National Zoo.

The story you heard sounds like the Napoleon over yonder in the swamp that the Yankees left behind, that you can only see after an extended drought.

Offline rampa room artillery

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 03:08:08 PM »
 I cant say where or take pics but i know where a 3 lb iron gun is in a back yard that was brought up out of the bay. so the stories have fact.

rick bryan
 NSSA

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 03:51:49 PM »
Quote
I cant say where or take pics but i know where a 3 lb iron gun is in a back yard that was brought up out of the bay. so the stories have fact.


There's no question that they can be found underwater from time to time, the only thing I'm taking issue with is the notion that as soon as they didn't need them for insurance, they were immediately deep-sixed.  Those people were smarter than that, the stuff still had value.

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 04:36:25 PM »
They still had value, and it didn't take much to put them ashore, I am sure many ended up sold to iron foundries to be melted down and
made into other items, sometimes old obsolete cannon past their prime became ballast on larger ships where they quietly rusted away.

most times cannon dumped over board meant one or two things...... you were stuck in a bad storm in the Chesapeake bay and needed to
lighten ship, you didn't know the waters and ran aground and needed to lighten ship, OR you were trying to out run the customs agent
with your smuggled goods and needed to lighten ship..........

Out of curiosity can you tell us what condition the 3 lb gun is in?  is it badly pitted?
There were 3 iron guns in Norfolk on display down on the water front that were dredged up somewhere and they showed it!
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Frank46

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 707
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2009, 05:46:34 PM »
If I remember right there was a commercial fishing boat either Long island NY or New Jersey. Picked up a torpedo in their nets and called the coast guard. I believe that the boat was deliberately sunk due to the torpedo being too dangerous. Be careful of what you wish for, you just might get torpedoed. A lot of ordnance was dumped off long island and new jersey after both wars. Guess that stuff must be pretty unstable now. Frank

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2009, 08:00:19 PM »
Yeah I was living on Long Island when that happened it was a trawler the Torpedo got caught in it's net off the South fork of L.I.

rather than cut the net loose they hauled it on board and brought it in........ the coast guard seized the boat took it out and sank it,

the captain of the boat cried foul and after a year or more finally was reimbursed for his boat.  if you think that's bad how about

an entire munitions ship sunk somewhere in the Long Island Sound during WWII.......if it ever blows there may be some big wave action......
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2009, 09:48:43 PM »
 How often were these guns used for their intended purpose? Were they maintained and ready when needed, or just something for the crew to bang their shins on and curse at for taking up space on the deck?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2009, 12:16:58 AM »
Quote
How often were these guns used for their intended purpose? Were they maintained and ready when needed, or just something for the crew to bang their shins on and curse at for taking up space on the deck?

Let's see if I can spell "deterrent."  

I haven't read any sea narratives to know if they ever had to use them in anger, however I can tell you that smaller private vessels and merchantmen who had no insurance at all used them in the Gulf of Tonkin where piracy of anything and everything was a big problem.  See the article in Nat. Geographic entitled I think "Pirate Fighters of the South China Sea" from June 1946.  There are some great photos in that article which we've posted here before showing a Vietnamese trader in his junk (sailboat) armed with a Mauser broomhandle mounted in an armor shield on one part of the boat, and about a 2-pounder English gunade "insurance gun" on another part.  It also shows his ammo which was mostly canister rounds made of stuff in sock cartridges.  I wouldn't want to mess with that particular vessel.

One of my insurance guns, a two-pounder English gunade, was found washed up on a beach in Vietnam ca. 1970.

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 12:51:41 AM »
How often were these guns used for their intended purpose? Were they maintained and ready when needed, or just something for the crew to bang their shins on and curse at for taking up space on the deck?

Like anything else it would depend on the captain....... if he was former navy he might insist on gun drill and firing of the cannon so the crew would have a chance
of hitting the broad side of a barn...... other captains being more frugal may not wish to  waste money on powder and shot,  one other thing to remember is in the
earlier days of armed merchantmen in time of war the smaller faster craft would have more cannon added get a letter of Marque and go privateering  I would think
under those conditions there would be gun drill......

during time of war the British East India Company who's ships were usually well armed would go in convoy to help avoid being attacked,  even with this they would
get a Royal Navy escort.... these were merchantmen their crews might have to defend themselves but any knock down drag out fight with a French frigate was expected to dealt with by the Royal Navy.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Mohawk

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1958
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2009, 05:25:26 AM »
  That may be the same area that the US dumped tons of VX after it was outlawed in the '60's, I think due to the depth of the water?

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2009, 10:52:51 PM »
 I'd bet a dollar that some crews today would be happy to have a black powder swivel gun or two in some areas of the world. :)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 02:59:10 AM »
A couple of swivel guns on the bach of these freighters that keep getting hijacked .

Of course some backup would be nice when the incomming sandstorm of RPGs and AK bullitts start up .

Kinda Like a the Space Shuttle door gunners .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2009, 06:41:05 PM »
Maybe something like a .50 Browning so they could engage the enemy outside the range of the enemy's weapons.

Or several .50 Brownings.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2009, 06:55:25 PM »
 ;)  BINGO ! make some more examples , This could lead to further 'saved or created jobs' in some 185th district in a district of 4 . We GOT gunners !

Two ma duces would make all the examples you need  , They also need to 'take out ' a 'mother ship' .

A punt kinda , back them up on the field of life abit .

Cannons are not nessesarily nessesary  8). (god it anit easy being an ignorant !)
gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2009, 06:59:57 PM »
Cannons are not nessesarly nessesary.   8)

Especially slow loading muzzle loaders.  Now a 40mm anti-aircraft gun like a Bofors would be nice, too.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2009, 08:34:18 PM »

Cannons are not nessesarly nessesary.   8)

Especially slow loading muzzle loaders.  Now a 40mm anti-aircraft gun like a Bofors would be nice, too.

Bofors gun would not be a good choice as the gun can not be declined far enough for close targets, 

In our modern world you need to identify the hostiles before you engage them, if you start blasting

with a cannon while they are 3 to 5 thousand yards out you could be hitting an "innocent" fishing boat......

largest mounted gun I could see would be a 20mm AA gun with 60 rnd drum  more practical would be

MK19 belt fed 40mm grenade launcher it has a variety of rounds for it,  I can say this ... I have knowledge

of a possible system that would meet the needs is remote controlled from the bridge, and would not be in view

until needed,  a friend has a system he is adapting for use at the request of a container ship line....... it would

work around some modern prohibitions of arming merchantmen ....... I can say no more on this don't ask.

 

It seems that most countries frown on armed merchantmen coming into their ports.........

also modern international maritime law may have something to do with keeping them neutered.

Does anyone know when Insurance companies stopped requiring cannon on merchantmen?

the last we see any form of defense on ships in modern times is WWII.


 
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2009, 12:36:08 AM »
Now a 40mm anti-aircraft gun like a Bofors would be nice, too.

That would make it too easy. Child's play  ;D

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2009, 12:09:29 PM »
the bofors 40 mm is anything but obsolete today
ok its construction dates back to 1935 , but a few changes has been done since then  ;D
the swedish CV 9040 is equiped with a bofors 40 mm
today it aint manually fed from the top , it got 3 hydraulic magazines below the barrel
one each for armour piercing , anti personel and standard explosive ammunition
so despite its age of almost 75 years its still one of the worlds best cannons
the us navy used them to just recently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3hC0vsZ5-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAqw5-6h-1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAsR7m1wXM0

sorry guys if this looks like a commercial for bofors and hägglunds ;D
but as most of you knows now my son is driving one of them
he have been down there now for 6 days on his second mission
this photo was taken the morning he left sweden for afghanistan
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2747
  • Gender: Male
  • Morko and Me
Re: insurance guns
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2009, 02:11:27 PM »
Rock On Karl .  8) very cool .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.