Author Topic: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol  (Read 1114 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 01:36:45 AM »
 "I say, John. The ball seems to be a bit stuck."

 "Really? How far in is it?"

 "Oh, I'd say about 20 feet."
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline phantom

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 02:03:05 AM »
Looks like a long range pistiol LOL.

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 02:29:40 AM »
"I say, John. The ball seems to be a bit stuck."

 "Really? How far in is it?"

 "Oh, I'd say about 20 feet."

Hey Vic, we got one stuck down the tube, what are we gonna do!
Don't sweat it John, I'm a designing engineer, all we need is a flagpole, a Paul Buyan sized screw, and a welder, and we're home free.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Squire Robin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 135
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 12:28:27 PM »
I wanted to get a picture of me standing next to it, like the one of Howard Blackmore. Found they'd stuck it in that narrow little room and it was quite impossible  ::)

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 12:41:32 PM »
The Lady must have had deep pocketes  ;D

With a sight radius like that I wonder how accurate it could be.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 06:30:30 PM »
There are four tools on the wall, from the top down it looks like a ladle, worm, sponge, and rammer. I'd like to know if two men were used to work each tool.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 06:38:26 PM »
That must have been an interesting piece to cast.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 07:39:45 PM »
I thought about that too, if it was cast vertically, that would have been a deep pit to dig.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 10:27:28 PM »
not to mention that its cast with a sand core
how did they do that without breaking the core ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Artilleryman

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1378
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 05:55:25 AM »
There are four tools on the wall, from the top down it looks like a ladle, worm, sponge, and rammer. I'd like to know if two men were used to work each tool.



I would imagine that the practice of keeping your body behind the muzzle during loading was not followed.  During the loading of a 30 pdr Parrott, one man handed the sponge and rammer poles to the number one cannoneer and both the number one and two worked together sponging and ramming.  This gun looks to be twice as long a barrel as the 30 pdr Parrott.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 07:53:36 AM »
Norm,
I'd say that you've got to be right on this call. For a single cannoneer to seat the shot one armed, with the thumb of his hand facing away from the muzzle, and his torso positioned behind the muzzle, would have called for a crewman with an arm like Hercules.

Dan,
The more one thinks about this cannon, the more one should appreciate it as a feat of engineering. From the artistic side, I wish I could find a clearer color photo that showed the sculptural details to better advantage than the B&W photo of QEPP V.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 08:09:02 AM »
     When I first saw this unusual cannon about seven or eight years ago in an old Victorian-era photo, it was located out in the elements, in a sea-side square location, surrounded by ladies and gentlemen in turn-of-the-century garb.  The first thought I had about it was, "How in the world did they ever cast that length of tube?".  At first, I thought it must have been cast horizontally, because I thought the bronze would certainly start to 'freeze' before it could reach the breech area of that extra-long cannon.  I knew very little about pouring heat, chaplets and sand cores back then.

     Now, I am solidly in the vertical-pour camp.  Dan's comments about the lack of survivability of a sand core that long, made me think, though.  I am betting that they would cast this tube vertically mainly because of the extra complexity of casting it horizontally.  Think of how many chaplets you would need to support a core of that weight.  Also, you would need a bunch going up into the cope too, as the extreme difference in the density of bronze versus the clay, wood and sand of the core would cause the core to 'float'as the bronze filled the mold cavity.  Further, and perhaps fatal complications, would come from the multiple risers needed to feed a mold this long from a central reservoir.  If just one of these risers froze, it would cause a complete casting failure.

     The core would, of course, have to be very strongly built, especially in the lower section, perhaps using more fired clay as an insulator over a solid timber inner core or a combination of sand and timber of increased insulation and still having the requisite strength.

     Sure, the pit would be deep, but they knew how to dig huge footings for those enormous cathedrals back then, and water wells too, so a deep, solitary,  hole was really not much of a challenge.  One thing is absolutely known here.  The weight of all that metal would certainly help fill out all those details in the breech and cascable area shown in the pic below.

Mike and Tracy

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Max Caliber

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 08:43:18 AM »
Maybe it was cast in sections then screwed together like a cleaning rod. :D
Max

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 11:19:27 AM »
Im 99% sure that its cast vertical
they just didnt do it in any other way back then
no risers here
just poured directly in the pouring bell/feeder
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Ex 49'er

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1975
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »
Im 99% sure that its cast vertical
they just didnt do it in any other way back then
no risers here
just poured directly in the pouring bell/feeder

Thanks for the picture, Dan. That clears up things a whole lot.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2009, 11:44:39 PM »
a few more pictures that explain a little more about cannon manufacturing back in the old days
but here they cast them solid and drill the bore
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: Queen Elizabeth's Pocket Pistol
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2009, 11:49:01 PM »
more pictures
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry