Author Topic: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?  (Read 1266 times)

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Offline 45-70.gov

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223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« on: October 24, 2009, 05:04:38 PM »
when  i am  loading....how  do  i know  if  it is  a 223  or  556?

some  say  they  are interchangeable

my  NEF  says  no  to  556

but  if  you were  to  reload  how  would  you differintiate.....other  than the head stamp
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Offline jhalcott

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 05:18:08 PM »
 I've weighed 223 and 556 cases from different lots and brands. There is SO much difference in weight I am afraid to just grab a bunch and load them. I've seen Sako cases go from 90 to 110 grains. These were HOT in several guns when new factory loaded.! I now use cases that weigh 86 to 90 grains. head stamp doesn't matter to much when I do this. Accuracy HAS improved since I started doing it this way. Why does NEF say no to 5.56? Must be because of the twist used in their barrels!

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2009, 05:21:47 PM »
Tim...according to this link...http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=11 you should KNOW BEFORE YOU SHOOT whether you are chambering 223 or 5.56.

If you are reloading for 223, then you are in control of leade (bullet "jump" distance in chamber to lands), bullet weight, and type (among other variables).

Try comparing your reloads to the OAL and dims on this link...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington where the dumbest of photographic examples is presented (ie. a 5.56 Nato when the article is all about the 223 Remington);  Go Figure.

Offline securitysix

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2009, 11:00:56 PM »
5.56 NATO is a dimension and bullet weight @ velocity from barrel length spec (55 gr. @ 3250 +/- 40 fps @ 15' from the muzzle of a 20" barrel for M193, 62 gr. @ 3050 +/- 40 FPS @ 25 meters from the muzzle of a 20" barrel for M855).

.223 Remington is a dimension and pressure specification spec (55,000 PSI max regardless of bullet weight and/or velocity).

Externally, there is no significant difference in their dimensions.  5.56 NATO ammunition generally exceeds the max pressure specs set out by SAAMI for .223 Remington ammunition and chambers.  To help, a 5.56 chamber will have a longer leade (jump from the case to the lands).  SAAMI spec. .223 Remington chambers don't have this extra leade, and firing 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition can generate excessive and dangerous pressures due to the much shorter leade.

If you're buying ammo, if it is marked and/or marketed as 5.56, M193, M855, Mil-Spec, or NATO spec, pass it by.  If you THINK it might be loaded to military specs, pass it by.  If it is common, commercially marketed ammo from Remington or Winchester, it should be fine.  The Federal 100 round bulk packs of 55 grain FMJ are .223 Remington spec.  Federal XM193 is NATO spec.

If you are handloading your ammunition, stay within the manuals, work up your loads slowly, and back off at any signs of pressure, even if you're below book max and you should be fine.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 01:49:44 AM »
Quote
when  i am  loading....how  do  i know  if  it is  a 223  or  556?

Short answer is that it doesn't matter. Longer answer is it really doesn't matter cuz the brass is the same really it's only a matter of how it was originally loaded that determines which it was. Once fired all the brass is the same. Ya need to check and generally will have to trim all of it anyway.

I do like to check the weight of cases of different manufacture and really even same headstamp brass some times varies in weight. Once sized all are the same outside so the heavier cases have less internal capacity which can result in higher pressures. In spite of rumors to the contrary most mil spec brass really isn't necessarily heavier than commercial and often is even lighter than some commercial. Unless ya check some on the scale you'll never know.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 04:28:14 AM »
thanks  for those links  land

they  sure  think   my  556  chamber  wont  shot  223  to  well

THATS  FUNNY     my 556 smith ar with  223 bullets is  the  most accuate rifle  i ever  shot

short  answer  ....follow reloading  data [no brainer  there]

buy  a 556 chamber  and  not  give it another thought
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
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Offline securitysix

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 06:27:00 AM »
thanks  for those links  land

they  sure  think   my  556  chamber  wont  shot  223  to  well

THATS  FUNNY     my 556 smith ar with  223 bullets is  the  most accuate rifle  i ever  shot

short  answer  ....follow reloading  data [no brainer  there]

buy  a 556 chamber  and  not  give it another thought

A 5.56 chamber can safely shoot .223 Remington ammo.  They can also often be quite accurate with .223 ammo.  Some people find that a .223 chamber is more accurate with .223 ammo than a 5.56 chamber with .223 ammo, all else being equal.  Then again, nothing is ever truly equal when it comes to rifle barrels, so it's a craps shoot.  If you want a compromise between accuracy and being able to safely shoot 5.56 ammo, you can always get a ".223 Wylde" chamber.  It was created by some guy named "Wylde" (go figure that crazy coincidence) as a sort of 5.56 NATO match chamber. The leade is longer than that of a SAAMI .223 chamber, but less than that of a mil-spec 5.56 NATO chamber.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 07:35:52 AM »
i  have  556 chamber    and  with   223  ammo

10 shot groups  are often covered  with  my thumb  at 200 yards

maybe  i just  got  lucky   or  do  you think  i should  re chamber  it  [just  kidding]

my  son  is looking   at  ars  and  ask how important  it was  about the chamber
the  other  son  has  223  chamber....i  havent  shoot  it  much yet

come  to think  of  it
has anyone ever  seen  reloading data  for  the  556 nato???
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline OR-E-Gun Bill

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 07:48:54 AM »
has anyone ever  seen  reloading data  for  the  556 nato???

5.56 x 45mm NATO
Hornady 6th Edition - Pages 109 to 110


Bill

Offline ironglow

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 01:12:25 PM »
  I have a few 20rd White boxes of Winchester white box with the USA circle, labeled; 5.56mm 55gr full metal jacket. Are they good to go inmy NEF or Savage 11G? I purchased them from a local Farm & Fleet Store, when they closed their doors a few years ago.
  Until recently, I was unaware of any difference and fired some full military 556 in my NEF, seemed OK when I used it...but I won't use it any more.
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Offline Steve P

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 02:23:54 PM »
5.56 is loaded per mil specs.  .223 is loaded per SAAMI specs.   Mil spec is about 50k psi where SAAMI is about 45k psi  (dont quote me on this, but it should be close.....) Anyway, the 5.56 is a little bit hotter and is also about .002" smaller in one of the diminsions to make Mil Spec for "field" gage (it fits into dirty chambers).

Shooting a 5.56 round in a .223 will give you a little headspace issue and a little pressure issue.  Most noticable would be in a bolt action rifle where there is not pressure being used to work the action.  You will feel the difference in recoil between the two, however slight it is.

Brass for .223 made per SAAMI spec will say ".223" on the headstamp.  If you have a case that does not have ".223" in the headstamp, it is likely a military or Mil Spec 5.56 brass.  Brass for mil spec can be thicker, not always so, but can be.  It will also likely have crimped in primers so a loose primer will not cause a jamb in a semi auto.

Many people use .223 and 5.56 brass interchangably when reloading.  With most loads, most people cannot tell the difference.  Getting into the max end of book loads is DANGEROUS if mixing brass because a load with one brand of brass may not have the same pressure as another brand.  You want to work up a load using the same headstamp brass if possible.  If you are shooting a mild load, mixing is usually ok.

Actual 5.56 mil spec brass is usually not reloaded for the military.  Very few people have the correct dies.  Small Base .223 dies will work for 5.56 NATO because they can size the brass down far enough to make spec so some military folks or military marksmen will load up to 5.56 NATO Mil spec for their specific firearm.  If you do not have a military firearm in 5.56 NATO, do NOT load per 5.56 book loads.

The NEF rifle is plenty strong for either .223 or 5.56 ammo.   5.56 brass is going to stretch in your .223 chamber on it's first firing.  Full length sizing several times will cause this stretching to occur several times.   After about 3-4 reloads, you could have a case head separation which is not a good thing. 

.223 brass is a few thousandth longer and will not stretch as much.  Again, full length sizing for your NEF will cause excessive stretching and can eventually lead to case head separations.  Probably not as fast as the 5.56 brass because .223 brass is longer to start with and is a little softer.

Best way to load for your NEF is to get 100 brass with same headstamp.  Does not matter which headstamp, just get .223 or 5.56 once fired brass of same headstamp.  Set up your sizing die so this fired brass just fits into your NEF chamber.  You want to have just a touch of tension as you close the action.  If you are sizing your brass to fit your action you will not have as much brass growth and your brass will last longer and you will be less likely to have any head separation.  Work up a .223 book load with this brass and you are good to go. 

Lots of folks will get neck sizing dies so brass is not excessively sized, fits chamber better after first firing, and gives better consistency thus probably better accuracy.  The average shooter can accomplish primarily the same thing by setting their full length die to size the brass and fit their chamber. 

I have some Federal American Eagle and some white box Winchester 5.56 Mil spec ammo that I have fired in my NEF and in my Contender.  It is not as accurate as .223 ammo, but it shoots just fine.  My fired brass is put into boxes so this brass stays with the specific gun it was fired in.  I will adjust my sizing die so this brass will stay sized for the specific chamber it was fired in.  I have some brass that has been fired 10-12 times with no problems.  Case neck splits almost always occur before case head separations if cases are sized in this manner.  Once you get 5-10 cases with neck splits or if you see a ring starting to show on the walls of your brass, it is time to discard all 100 brass and start over.

Good luck with your loading.  Stay within book loads, and size your brass for your gun.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline ironglow

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 02:20:22 PM »
 Thanks Steve;
  I'm just starting to haul my old reloading gear out of the attic after a couple decades. I of course don't have any Lil Gun for my Hornet though,  but I do have some IMR 4198, IMR4895, IMR 4227, Herc 2400 and just a bit of 4831.
  The 4895 will work for my .223, but I suppose there are better powders now. I will probably have to get new powder for my 30/30 and .308..the 2400 must have been for the .44 mag which I do not have anymore.
  Still, I'm looking forward to getting the old RCBS model JR3 going again.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline flashhole

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 02:26:44 AM »
Quote
when  i am  loading....how  do  i know  if  it is  a 223  or  556?

Short answer is that it doesn't matter. Longer answer is it really doesn't matter cuz the brass is the same really it's only a matter of how it was originally loaded that determines which it was. Once fired all the brass is the same. Ya need to check and generally will have to trim all of it anyway.

Don't want to flame anyone but this is just wrong.  It does matter, and it can matter a lot.  Some of the 5.56 brass can be as much as 10 grains heavier than commercial 223 brass.  This becomes important when loading ball powders like WW 748 near the max level.  Pressures will jump significantly if the two different types of brass are loaded with the same charge (this is the voice of experience speaking).  If you make the assumption it will behave the same you are looking for trouble.  The 5.56 brass can never be the same as commercial brass no matter how many times it is fired.  There is not enough room in the chamber for this to occur nor is it desirable.

I measued some brass just recently, here's a link that shows the results.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=61435

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 03:52:14 AM »
So have I and the results were as often commercial brass heavier than military as the other way around. I suggest YOU look at your own data as it backs up what I said. Your heavies are Fiocchi which is commercial but foreign and GFL which I have no clue what it is. WW and LC is almost identical.

Yes as I said case weights thru capacity varies but it varies as much or more between various commercial brands as it does between military and commercial and same with military it varies as much between one as between commercial and military. It is NOT true to say either is heavier or has less or more capacity than another. The only way to know is to check your brass. That it says .223 or 5.56 on the head does not mean a thing to the reloader and your little chart backs that up. Read your own into and understand what it tells you.


PMC 223 - 92.0
WW - 91.7
PS - 90.9
Fiocchi - 98.0
GFL - 97.6
LC - 91.8
FC - 90.0
RP - 90.0
WCC - 92.0


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline 84Jim

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Re: 223 or 5.56 nato how do i know?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 04:00:06 AM »
Quote
Externally, there is no significant difference in their dimensions.  5.56 NATO ammunition generally exceeds the max pressure specs set out by SAAMI for .223 Remington ammunition and chambers.  To help, a 5.56 chamber will have a longer leade (jump from the case to the lands).  SAAMI spec. .223 Remington chambers don't have this extra leade

I think this is the correct difference between .223 and 5.56, the length of the freebore.  There is also a Wylde chamber which is intermediate between those 2. 

As for weighing brass, there is no question that Lake City is thicker than commercial.  But not all brass uses the same alloy, and those weight comparisions are not always a direct relationship to case capacity.  I switch between commercial and milsurp brass with no bad results or change in zero etc.  However, I don't load max loads either.

Jim