Author Topic: forend bedding tricks (Read 3421 times)

Dinny · « **on:** December 03, 2009, 07:40:37 PM »

Hello everyone,
I have been reading the FAQs and experimenting with the many different ways to free-float and bed the forends. I started off my experiments by shooting two rifles, my .45LC and .357 Mag. I'm not gonna mention anymore about the .357 Mag because it had a loose fit to it's frame and have decided that any tests with it were inconclusive and should be redone at a later time now that I have a frame it fits much better. So the .45 LC really likes 225gr Barnes XPBs loaded by CorBon. I shot at 50yds for all testing and used 3-shot groups for comparisons. The weather was cool and the barrel was slow to warm and quick to cool. I pulled a Boresnake through the bore in between groups. With the forend installed and no mods, it shot a 1" group.

With the forend removed it shot a 5/8" group.

When I installed the rubber o-ring, it shot a 2" group.

I didn't have the set screw installed yet or a torque wrench to test with a consistent screw tension, so I snugged it.
Today I was at Lowe's so I picked up a few supplies, 1/4-20 set screws(1/4" and 5/16"), rubber o-rings, plastic flat washers, and a few 1/4-20 machine screws. After tinkering around for a while, I have discovered that the 1/4" long set screw would turn with the forend machine screw if I didn't start with it buried and tight. So then I used one that was 5/16" long and ground it down just a little at a time to test the fit.
Now comes my questions, finally.

I know it says in the FAQs that the screw should bottom-out when the rubber o-ring is half-way compressed. How do I know when that really is? If I go off of floating and that alone, how much does it need to float? Until a dollar bill can easily fit under the forend or is it fine that the dollar bill has some tension or friction but still can slide under? When I have a fully floated forend that gives no tension to the dollar bill, then the forend slides left and right.

Is that normal? Any other ideas?

Thanks, Dinny

cwall · « **Reply #1 on:** December 03, 2009, 08:15:36 PM »

Dinny,

I floated the forend of my synthetic Handi by taking two #12 split lockwashers and spreading the gap open until the forend screw would fit inside the washers. The OD of the washers is still small enough to fit inside the stud hole of the forend so the barrel stud will bottom out on the washers when you tighten the screw. On my rifle, screw torque does not seam to make much difference. I guess that is because of the hard surface provided by the washers. One washer floated the forend OK, but two provided plenty of room.

I used stainless washers and two pair of pliers to spread them open.

Clayton

necchi · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2009, 06:08:40 AM »

Something I just found,,I have 1 frame and 2 brrls,The forearm fit really nice on 1 but put alot pf pressure on the stud of other. I didn't want to mess with the good fit for the 1st so I got another forearm for the 2nd barrel.(dedicated forearms)

Now, I'm doing the set screw/o-ring fit. On the first barrel I could turn a 1/4" long set screw all the way down, back it off 1/2 turn and got the fit I wanted. A drop of blue lock tight on the bottom during the fit and all is good. As with other barrels I've floated, I like the paper strip to slide freely with no resistance.

When fitting the 2nd forearm too the second barrel I discovered the factory inlet (mortise) for the stud screw mount in the wood forearm is a full 1/10 of an inch deeper! That's alot! The o-ring is NOT being contacted or compressed at all.

Whilst I was goofing around with it, I backed the set screw out a couple turns and put the forearm on and got that "wobble" you mentioned. Hmmm? That's a Bad thing, don't want that.
So, I'm off to the hardware store to get a large neoprene washer with a hole the size of the OD of the stud post and around 1/10 thick. I'll cut it to fit the mortise in the forearm and e-poxy the darn thing, then I'll do the set screw/o-ring fit like the other. I thought I might cut a piece of wood to fit but I think the washer will work just fine.
For what it's worth, the 1st mortice is .10 deep and the second is .195-.200 deep. It's interesting that there is such a BIG differance in the mortice depth, gotta love these things, sure does keep ya thinking

Your question, "Now comes my questions, finally. I know it says in the FAQs that the screw should bottom-out when the rubber o-ring is half-way compressed. How do I know when that really is?"
Well all I do is make o-ring contact then squeeze the forearm with my hand wraped around the barrel, turn the mounting screw in and see if there is a little more squeeze left, ya kinda gotta go by feel and looking. I want that o-ring to compress just some. Another thought, I expect that o-ring to need too be replaced every so often. I need one in there that's still giving some resistance and not set like a washer in a faucet that needs repair.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2009, 06:21:22 AM »

Best advice is shoot it and see how it does, what works well on one may not work on the other.

I've used rubber grommets instead of O-rings, they're thicker, but same OD.

Tim

rickt300 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:09:19 AM »

I took a different route. I floated the forearm from the reciever. I put three wraps of plastic tape around the barrel at the end of the forend and two wraps around the barrel in front of the frame. I sanded either the spacer or the forend till there is no pressure from the spacer against the frame when the foream is installed. Then I put a 1 inch or so bead of black automotive silicon in front of and behind the screw stud leaving some space between it and the stud. Then I cut pieces of wax paper 4 inches long and just wide enough to fit between the stud and the frame for the back piece and the front piece reaches just to the tape wrapped in front. I lay the waxed paper centered on the silicon, gently put the forend in place and tighten the screw just until I feel some resistance. Let it cure over nite, remove forearm, trim the wax paper close to the silicon and burn the edges of it from around the silicon leaving the wax paper on the silicon pads. This way the forearm is fitted to all my barrels rather than having to have designated forearms. I usually just tighten the screw to snug and not tight as compressing the silicon just a little holds the forearm firmly. Remove the tape and the only place the forearm touches is the silicon pads and not bottomed out on the pad around the screw stud.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:51:28 AM »

Quote from: rickt300 on December 06, 2009, 08:09:19 AM

I took a different route. I floated the forearm from the reciever. I put three wraps of plastic tape around the barrel at the end of the forend and two wraps around the barrel in front of the frame. I sanded either the spacer or the forend till there is no pressure from the spacer against the frame when the foream is installed. Then I put a 1 inch or so bead of black automotive silicon in front of and behind the screw stud leaving some space between it and the stud. Then I cut pieces of wax paper 4 inches long and just wide enough to fit between the stud and the frame for the back piece and the front piece reaches just to the tape wrapped in front. I lay the waxed paper centered on the silicon, gently put the forend in place and tighten the screw just until I feel some resistance. Let it cure over nite, remove forearm, trim the wax paper close to the silicon and burn the edges of it from around the silicon leaving the wax paper on the silicon pads. This way the forearm is fitted to all my barrels rather than having to have designated forearms. I usually just tighten the screw to snug and not tight as compressing the silicon just a little holds the forearm firmly. Remove the tape and the only place the forearm touches is the silicon pads and not bottomed out on the pad around the screw stud.

I do the RTV bedding..but I relieve the forearm by 1/8" to 3/16" front to back and then fill the bed completely except first 1/2" and last 1/2" of the forearm..this is including the mortise joint with RTV..and up to 1/8" below the top of side of the forearm on each side of the barrel..Basically made 1 giant deresonator pad in the forearm..It works great on this barrel..and tightend the action up where you can feel it opening and closing..and there is no wiggle to it at all..Haven't tried it on my other barrel yet to see..but I have an additional forearm for that one if I need it..

Like Quick said though..shoot it and see before doing anything else to it..

Mac

Mac

necchi · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:42:23 PM »

Ya know,,Thanks Rick and Mac,,
I'm gonna try that RTV bedding on the second barrel,,I just happen to have some RTV silicon,
What da heck, if it works Great

If not I can just peel it out and try something else. TY for the idea'r.

guns-o-fun · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2009, 12:39:10 PM »

My 45LC BC carbine shot well right out of the box...well, tinker, tinker. I thought "if it shoots this well now, wait til I free float the barrel with a little sanding and the O-ring trick." Oops! Accuracy went straight to hades. It seemed like my gun wanted a snugger forend fit. I RTV bedded it along the entire length of the forend with a little room at the action end and trimmed it down a bit from the sides. Now it is back to shooting almost as well as it did before I started messing around with it.

Dinny · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:53:23 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on December 06, 2009, 08:51:28 AM

I do the RTV bedding..but I relieve the forearm by 1/8" to 3/16" front to back and then fill the bed completely except first 1/2" and last 1/2" of the forearm..this is including the mortise joint with RTV..and up to 1/8" below the top of side of the forearm on each side of the barrel..Basically made 1 giant deresonator pad in the forearm..It works great on this barrel..and tightend the action up where you can feel it opening and closing..and there is no wiggle to it at all..Haven't tried it on my other barrel yet to see..but I have an additional forearm for that one if I need it..

Like Quick said though..shoot it and see before doing anything else to it..

Mac

Mac,
I think we're gonna have to meet at one of our houses and discuss this more in-depth over an adult beverage.

I'd like to pick your brain in person and see what we could come up with.

Thanks, Dinny

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2009, 04:16:46 PM »

Quote from: Dinny on December 07, 2009, 02:53:23 PM

Quote from: Mac11700 on December 06, 2009, 08:51:28 AM

I do the RTV bedding..but I relieve the forearm by 1/8" to 3/16" front to back and then fill the bed completely except first 1/2" and last 1/2" of the forearm..this is including the mortise joint with RTV..and up to 1/8" below the top of side of the forearm on each side of the barrel..Basically made 1 giant deresonator pad in the forearm..It works great on this barrel..and tightend the action up where you can feel it opening and closing..and there is no wiggle to it at all..Haven't tried it on my other barrel yet to see..but I have an additional forearm for that one if I need it..

Like Quick said though..shoot it and see before doing anything else to it..

Mac

Mac,
I think we're gonna have to meet at one of our houses and discuss this more in-depth over an adult beverage. I'd like to pick your brain in person and see what we could come up with.

Thanks, Dinny

Sure...sounds good to me

Mac

Squib · « **Reply #10 on:** December 07, 2009, 09:36:25 PM »

we should all meet at macs since he lives in the middle... squid jarhead and soldier... we could all talk big about being the best and shoot a lot, then drink those adult beverages

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2009, 11:45:16 PM »

I have found that I want a tight fore end/barrel fit. I have dedicated fore ends for each barrel. I put a pillar in each. I then used JB Weld on the full length of the fore end to bed the barrel to the fore end. I then made sure the fore end cap is not tight to the frame, so it is a little loose when the barrel is in the open position, but still tight to the barrel. It locks up tight, but is wobbly when open. Here are some results at 107 yards from my 22K Hornet that has the fore end bedded as described.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2009, 06:14:19 AM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on December 07, 2009, 11:45:16 PM

I have found that I want a tight fore end/barrel fit. I have dedicated fore ends for each barrel. I put a pillar in each. I then used JB Weld on the full length of the fore end to bed the barrel to the fore end. I then made sure the fore end cap is not tight to the frame, so it is a little loose when the barrel is in the open position, but still tight to the barrel. It locks up tight, but is wobbly when open. Here are some results at 107 yards from my 22K Hornet that has the fore end bedded as described.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

Nice shooting..

I have a problem with high pressure rounds when the forearms are the least bit wobbly..Seems I never can get them 100% consistant and get horizontal dispersion with my groups..2 or 3 together..2 or 3 off to 1 side of the first ones..

Mac

watkibe · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2009, 07:32:01 AM »

I read all the FAQs and tried some of the suggestions. I settled on a nylon washer and the setscrew in the mounting lug hole. I didn't like the o-ring because it always seemed like it had a variable amount of pressure because it's soft. The nylon washer is hard, so it seems like it's easier to get a repeatable amount of pressure. I adjusted the set screw so that the mounting screw bottoms out 1/4 turn after it gets finger tight on the washer. Now it's easy and fast to remove and replace the forend, just turn in the screw until it stops. There is a little more than a dollar bill's worth of space around the barrel, but no wiggle, open or closed. Plus, it shoots better. Before, I would get 2 shots really close to each other, and the third several inches away. Now they all go into the same nice little group.

rickt300 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2009, 08:14:31 AM »

Soft mounting systems like silicon may just help damp some of the barrels vibrations.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2009, 11:42:43 AM »

I forgot to mention that I rest on the fore end too, not the frame. I feel that if you shoot off the frame, it is only good when you shoot off the bags. When you get into a real world situation, like a bi-pod or holding the gun with your off hand on the fore end so shooting off of bags on the fore end is a must. The barrel/frame lock up has to be positively, absolutely; tight, no matter which fore end accuracy method you use.

Squib · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2009, 07:14:55 PM »

good point... if you can't shoot it in a field position and keep zero, you're not gaining anything at the range. shoot off a rest for fun and sighting, but after sighting you need to tweak it till it works standing and sitting "indian-style".

blacksan · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2009, 04:09:04 AM »

I'm new to the H&R's but have been tinkering and building rifles for years. The whole issue of bedding to make them work with a particular load is rather time consuming but fun when you see progress. The other point not mentioned here is length of barrel and how those harmonics can be tuned. When we barreled and chambered actions that sights weren't mounted on we intently started out with long blanks in the 26" range and started chopping of increments and re-crowning when we where intending to use a specific load. It was always interesting to see how much of a difference this made when you found the "sweet-spot". Of course this relates directly to stock bedding but still neat. I always like the Browning Boss System for this reason. In essence you moved the comp/weight for or aft until you found the "sweet-spot" for barrel harmonics. The last No #1 Ruger I barreled and chambered I ended up free floating the forearm and bedding the the rear of the forearm to the action with acker glass to get things right. I don't see why this wouldn't work but I need to see if my new 45LC BC shoots without tinkering first. I think I am going to start out with gas checked lead bullets for this rifle and see what I can come up. The other swap is probably going to be an aperture rear sight to help my aging eyes.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 09, 2009, 05:44:46 AM »

Quote from: blacksan on December 09, 2009, 04:09:04 AM

I'm new to the H&R's but have been tinkering and building rifles for years. The whole issue of bedding to make them work with a particular load is rather time consuming but fun when you see progress. The other point not mentioned here is length of barrel and how those harmonics can be tuned. When we barreled and chambered actions that sights weren't mounted on we intently started out with long blanks in the 26" range and started chopping of increments and re-crowning when we where intending to use a specific load. It was always interesting to see how much of a difference this made when you found the "sweet-spot". Of course this relates directly to stock bedding but still neat. I always like the Browning Boss System for this reason. In essence you moved the comp/weight for or aft until you found the "sweet-spot" for barrel harmonics. The last No #1 Ruger I barreled and chambered I ended up free floating the forearm and bedding the the rear of the forearm to the action with acker glass to get things right. I don't see why this wouldn't work but I need to see if my new 45LC BC shoots without tinkering first. I think I am going to start out with gas checked lead bullets for this rifle and see what I can come up. The other swap is probably going to be an aperture rear sight to help my aging eyes.

That's the beauty of RTV bedding them..You can add or subtract whatever amount you need to tune them. 26" Handi barrels in odd calibers are very rare..and I don't really know anyone who would purposly start cutting one of them back..I'm sure some would..but..I'm not in that frame of mind..I like what the longer barrel does for the ballistics..and most of them are pretty good shooters anyways..

Good Luck with the 45LC..that's a fun round to shoot..

Mac

blacksan · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2009, 06:00:00 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on December 09, 2009, 05:44:46 AM

Quote from: blacksan on December 09, 2009, 04:09:04 AM
I'm new to the H&R's but have been tinkering and building rifles for years. The whole issue of bedding to make them work with a particular load is rather time consuming but fun when you see progress. The other point not mentioned here is length of barrel and how those harmonics can be tuned. When we barreled and chambered actions that sights weren't mounted on we intently started out with long blanks in the 26" range and started chopping of increments and re-crowning when we where intending to use a specific load. It was always interesting to see how much of a difference this made when you found the "sweet-spot". Of course this relates directly to stock bedding but still neat. I always like the Browning Boss System for this reason. In essence you moved the comp/weight for or aft until you found the "sweet-spot" for barrel harmonics. The last No #1 Ruger I barreled and chambered I ended up free floating the forearm and bedding the the rear of the forearm to the action with acker glass to get things right. I don't see why this wouldn't work but I need to see if my new 45LC BC shoots without tinkering first. I think I am going to start out with gas checked lead bullets for this rifle and see what I can come up. The other swap is probably going to be an aperture rear sight to help my aging eyes.

That's the beauty of RTV bedding them..You can add or subtract whatever amount you need to tune them. 26" Handi barrels in odd calibers are very rare..and I don't really know anyone who would purposly start cutting one of them back..I'm sure some would..but..I'm not in that frame of mind..I like what the longer barrel does for the ballistics..and most of them are pretty good shooters anyways..

Good Luck with the 45LC..that's a fun round to shoot..

Mac

My bad! I was referring to cutting done barrels on modern action work and not H&R factory stuff. If my new BC needs bedding I might try pillar bedding the forearm first and then relieving the whole forearm. Heck, I'm talking about tinkering with the dam thing and I haven't even shot it yet...........

Yes, 45LC should be a Hoot with good lead bullets and a little bit of powder experimentation. Unique is where I normally start with cast but Trail Boss is looking like a fun choice too............

Regards,
Adrian

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2009, 07:32:19 AM »

Like I said..Good luck with it..It looks to be a real fun gun to have in ones collection..Sooner or later I'll have one to play around with..

Mac