Author Topic: Realistic Self Defense Distance and Barrel Length (Read 1882 times)

photobear · « **on:** December 01, 2009, 06:15:17 PM »

I'm thinking of getting either a 2 1/2 " or a 4" S&W 686 revolver for all-round use as a car/home/carry self-defense gun. Aside from the extremely rare instance where someone might need accurate aimed fire at maybe 15 or 20 yards to stop some whacko who is shooting people, most things I've read say that the average self-defense shooting occurs at much closer range, maybe 2 or 3 yards. And for use in the home, I can't imagine the distances would be much further than 5 yards.

I guess my question is about the accuracy of a 2 1/2" barrel verses a 4" barrel. At realistic self-defense distances, would there be any advantage to the longer barrel? Would the 4" be much easier to shoot because the extra length/weight would tame the recoil more and have less muzzle blast, or would the difference be minimal? The 2 1/2" would definitely be easier to carry concealed.

Thanks.

Bill

trotterlg · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2009, 07:14:40 PM »

I don't think that a 4 inch barrel would gain you anything except weight. But, I am also of the opinion that the most likely shot you will ever take is under 6 feet, I carry a 38 special derringer. If you shoot someone from 10 or 20 yards you will probably have a lot of explaining to do. Also, I think, lots of people get offensive and defensive guns confused. An offensive gun is something a LEO would carry while raiding a drug house, a defensive gun is something you carry in your boot when you go to the mall. But then I am an old guy and don't really care how big my gun is as long as it shoots when I pull the trigger. Guess it also depends on your line of work and where you live and travel to, there are places that I would not go without a 45 ACP. Larry

williamlayton · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2009, 10:05:23 PM »

6 feet or 25 yards. Who can say. I think you still need one large enough for the 25 yards--it will still do the job at 6 feet----maybe not the other way around.
Blessings

GH1 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2009, 12:08:08 AM »

I have a Taurus .357 with a 4 in barrel that I tried to use as my carry weapon but it's just too darned big to easily conceal, most of the time. If you're planning on carrying concealed that's something to think about.
GH1

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2009, 01:29:52 AM »

I had a mod 66 that had been "tuned " at 25 yards it was deadly accurate . So what is tuned well the trigger was about 4 lbs but felt like 2 or less . No creep or thake up . And all that depended on a lot of effort from the shooter . When you add the stress involved in a gun fight hitting anything at any distance can be a challenge with a handgun . The short bbl is easier to tote and hide . It also is harder for the bad guy to grab and rip from your hand 3.5 inches extra bbl is a nice handle. More effort is needed to control where it is pointed , longer bbl easier to see . The longer bbl is easier to aim , will have a higher bullet fps speed .

Noreaster · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2009, 01:52:54 AM »

I had a 2.5 inch S&W 357 mag that was spot on. I know sight radius makes a difference, but this gun could shoot and the adjustable sights were easy to pick up.

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2009, 01:59:14 AM »

Photobear: out to a 25 yd 'rescue shot' a 2.5" bbl is most likely no more accurate than the 4", and it is shorter and only a tad lighter.

I will agree with the others, all of them, that a defensive shot will likely be close to 10' or even less, but 'rescue shots' can reach out to 25 yds and if you ever have to take a shot like that you will need to know where your gun hits. Some folks call 'rescue shots' 'hostage shots' for clarification.

Snub nose guns can be very accurate. My M38, with a 1 and 7/8" bbl will regularly hit a 12" gong at 100m shooting a older Winchester 200 gn load (when I do my part). The slugs move slowly enough to actually see them travel downrange over light colored sand or snow, so it is easy to adjust fire to get them to hit, and those heavy slow moving slugs hit with a wallop.

You are thinking about a 357 for defense - a heavy (not +P) load from a 38 snubbie will work just as well, without all the flash and bark of the 357 for personal defense and the 38 should be easier to shoot and control.

Look at it this way - in a home defense situation you may probably have a flashlight in one hand and the gun in the other, making for one handed shooting in most instances. A rescue shot requires both hands, at least for me.

I have seen some fellas paint a white stripe down the barrel of their snubbie, ending just at the base of the front sight - works very well in low light and allows you to easily see the front sight on bright days, but gives you a good aiming guide in low light and sends the slugs where you point the stripe (think of something like a 1/8th inch strip of reflective pinstripe as a example).

As for accuracy - I can put 5 200 gn swc-k style slugs into a 2" circle at 25m - which is sufficient for a rescue shot. hth and jmtcw.

photobear · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2009, 03:05:09 AM »

Thanks. So basically, most of you think the 2 1/2" barrel is the way to go, and is accurate enough to hit a 6" circle at roughly 20 yards?

Bill

drdougrx · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2009, 03:25:27 AM »

I think what everyone is saying is that you need to be practical and realize that there are tradeoffs. Based on quite alot of experience, a 2.5" is a practical barrel length for the intended purpose of defense at distances that will most likely be at 10' or less, and, that in the opinion of many though not all, that size is accurate enough to do the intended job. I agree. I'd like to carry a LW Commander all of the time...I find a 3" m60/357 is close to ideal for everyday carry as is...for me...a ppk/s. It's a tradeoff.

I have to remind myself of Rule #1 in these discussions......Have a gun. Unless you find something that you can be comfortable with day in and day out and actually commit to carry it 24/7...the point is academic.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:22:09 AM »

i love my 5 shot hand held flash/bang grenade

louder and more flash the better...i expect it my opponent won't

it is VERY un-nerving even for those near me at the range

its a 2 inch 357 mag 640 smith centinial DAO
realy is it shot with a 38 never carried that way

on the range at 50 YARDS i wont miss you
real world ..stress and bad lighting..........50 ft maybe

velocity is 1250 in this gun with 125 remington ammo
a longer barrel offers more velocity
extra velocity is useless if the long barrel is left behind
short barrels not as accurate........that myth has long been busted

Savage · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:37:05 AM »

Unless it's for pocket carry, I prefer the 4" revolvers. They balance much better than the snubby or the 6" for me. The big difference is frame size, my snubbies are "J" frames while my 4" guns are "K" frames or larger. I see no carry advantage to the 2"/2 1/2" barrels over the 4" in the larger frame revolvers. JMO
Savage

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** December 02, 2009, 09:55:04 AM »

Quote

short barrels not as accurate........that myth has long been busted

That's a generality. In my hands with my eyes short barrels are NOT as accurate. Lloyd Smale says in his hands and with his eyes they are more accurate. So it depends on who's doing the shooting.

The great equalizer tho is a set of CTC laser grips. With them barrel length is of no importance as the sights are no longer needed. Just put that little red light where ya want the bullet to go and pull the trigger. It is as accurate from the hip or if you are standing on your head as if shot normally. I believe all carry guns should wear a laser. I wish all of mine did. In a perfect world I'd have funds to put lasers on them all but this is far from a perfect world and I'm a long way from having the funds to make it happen.

photobear · « **Reply #12 on:** December 02, 2009, 10:38:02 AM »

Thanks. I was wondering about the crimson trace grips. My plan was to put a burris fastfire on it because my eyes aren't what they used to be, and a single dot would be a lot faster for me to use than trying to see/line-up a rear sight/front sight/target.

I've never used a laser sight, but my thinking was that I didn't want to spend time trying to find the projected dot on my target, especially in bright light. Like I said though, I've never used one so I could easily be wrong. Is the dot easy to see on a target in bright light?

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 02, 2009, 11:15:24 AM »

Yes pretty much so. I suppose if it were bright sunlight and the guy were wearing a red shirt it might not be but what's the chance that's gonna be the scenario? If range is as expected in self defense shooting you aren't gonna hafta hunt that dot. Even the small sight you mention is bulky for a snub nose revolver and makes carrying it a real hassle. The CTC grip takes up no extra space and just replaces the grips.

I can use it on my range on sunlit days OK tho if the sun is shining brightly on the target stand it can be a bit tough to find at 25 yards. Close up it is never a problem. NOTHING is faster as you don't even need to be looking at the gun.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #14 on:** December 02, 2009, 03:38:29 PM »

my pocket 357 has laser grips from crimson trace

they work on an indoor range

they are real good for practice
point and pull the laser switch rather than the trigger
fire a few thousand a month that way... under all sort of lighting....free

also practice dry fire with a laser on......even your bore sighter
excelent for learning trigger control

i little off barrel length topic tho

go short
go small
get a lazer when you can
get a 6inch+ later if you want to reach way out there

williamlayton · « **Reply #15 on:** December 03, 2009, 03:26:13 AM »

I think that a 2/3 inch barrel is an OK length for 25 yards.
I remember when GB got the laser grips and all the comments made.
I keep thinking that I am going to get a set for the little roller I keep tucked in the matress.
Blessings

John R. · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2009, 04:00:23 AM »

My brother has the exact gun you are talking about (686 2 1/2" bbl) and it is an excellant shooter at 25 yds. Many tests have been done about accuracy and bbl. length. Longer bbls. aren't necessarily any more accurate than short bbls. The longer sight radius makes the longer bbl. easier to see for some.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2009, 04:21:35 AM »

At 10 feet you will point shoot if the other guy is really trying to kill you it is a time thing .
At 25 yards a hostage shot with any hand gun even from a supported position is a very low percentage shot - off hand you may be tempting fate . Some will say if I don't do something they will kill the hostage . Well it be better for them to do so than you go to jail for it . A possible long shot is if more than one attacker is involved but then it is still hard to claim self defense aginst someone 150 feet away . Yes it may happen but it would be hard to convince some LEO's and courts .
So in reality will it be carried conc. if so a short bbl is better .
CT grips are great as are others . Keep in mind they are battry run and can fail when needed most so retain your ablity to use the sights on a weapon first then use the CT grips as an aid . Before you write that off , go outside on a bright day and see how fast you can pick up a light colored target

photobear · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2009, 05:38:04 AM »

Thanks for all your help. I feel much better now about getting a 2/3" barrel revolver!

federali · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2009, 01:41:22 AM »

I'm a retired special agent/firearms instructor formerly with the U.S. Treasury Dept. The FBI wrestled with the very same question as yours, resulting in the development of the S&W Model 10-3" round butt (model 65 in stainless). I love my Model 65. Built on the K frame, it is concealable, accurate at all practical handgun ranges to 25 or so yards. I might add that the 2.5" Model 19, or the combat magnum, was extremely popular with federal law enforcement agencies prior to the wholesale transition to autoloaders.

With revolvers, an inch of barrel one way or the other, does not have too much of an affect on concealablilty. It's the gun's height and thickness that affect concealability. Technically, a 2.5" barrel is no more or less accurate than a 3" or 4" barrel. What changes is that the longer sight radius allows most shooters to shoot more accurately and is the reason that most target shooters during the revolver days used 6" guns. The downside of a 6" barrel for self defense is that they are slower to get on target, assuming you'll be using the sights. The 3" tube is an excellent compromise between the 2-2.5" tubes and the 4" tubes.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:53:17 AM »

People just love to dream up these fanciful scenarios like "rescue shots", but in reality it just don't happen, oh maybe one chance in several quadrillion. Real life personal defense shooting is very up close and personal and if the bullet comes out the front end of the gun it will be accurate enough and probably better than you will shoot in a life & death situation
Accuracy is a concern when we expect a gun to do double duty. I often carry a revolver when small game hunting with a shotgun and would like to think it is accurate enough to head shoot sitting rabbits at 20 yards.
As to barrel length, I once conducted a little test with a Dan Wesson .357 mag with 2 1/2" and 6" barrels having a frame mounted scope. The scope removed the issue of sight radius. I tried out six loads from each barrel length and found the snubby was "almost" as accurate as the six inch with one load but only that one load. The six inch barrel was pretty decent with every load tried where as the snubby shot very poorly with most loads. My conclusion was that while short barrels CAN be accurate they also can be finicky and it may take some work to find the accurate load.

Mikey · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2009, 12:39:28 AM »

joe: that fanciful scenario of a rescue shot happens a lot more often than you think and if you want to be that 'one in a quadrillion' who can't or won't make a shot like that it is your choice. I think you should ask how many LEOs have had to worry about whether their issue pistol could make the shot to save a victim, but if you don't think that's necessary - well, that's simply your preference.

I would opine that most real life personal defense situations are up close and personal because the victim to be doesn't have much of a clue about what is moving in on he/she until the threat is within 10'. I prefer to keep my threats much more distant and exercise a definitive lack of discretion when a possible threat arises.

Also understand that when a bullet comes out the barrel, the barrel had best be pointed at the threat or it will not be accurate enough for self defense.

I never liked Dan Wessons as you could crank down the barrel nut too much and over-torque the barrel, which resulted in lousy accuracy. I don't know how well you managed to hit with that 2.5" DW, but the same barrel length on a S&W M19 always got me donging the gong (12") at 100m. 2 cents.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #22 on:** December 08, 2009, 04:50:08 AM »

I was speaking of genuine legitimate self defence shooting by the ordinary citizen and you are speaking of cop snipers. Yes, a police officer does indeed need an accurate handgun because he may well be engaging a barricaded subject at relatively long handgun ranges. I'd go to jail for that.
Lightening strikes happen thousands of times more often than "rescue shots". Should I carry a lightning rod?

Personal defense shootings occur at close range because we do not initiate the action. As a CW permit holder I am not allowed to draw my weapon unless I can show cause to fear for my life. Criminals may be stupid but they are not so stupid as to strike a pose in the middle of the street and shout "DRAW"!

Tonk · « **Reply #23 on:** December 08, 2009, 07:35:41 AM »

Now let us all please face facts! The distance at which a mugger is going to try to take your purse or wallet is not going to be 25 yards or even 10 yards for that matter. A car-jacker is not going to be across the street waving his gun at you, telling you to vacate your automobile to him. He will be up close and personal about his or their intentions.

Now this distance issue is going to be between 3 feet to 12 feet most likely! Any 2 inch revolver will put bullets into the target zone at that distance. Now the shooter must learn to control and fire that weapon in the stress situation and hit their mark solidly. Forgetabout that shoot out at the OK-Corral, seldom is such a thing going to happen unless your a LEO in the field. Never let a stranger get closer than 15 feet to you ever on the street or parking lot. You always want to STOP them with your voice and have your hand on your weapon at the same time. Always be alert loading or unloading your car in a parking lot~!~!

We practice at 3 to 21 feet and do more work at 3 to 10 feet than any other distance. We use NO SIGHTS, this is point weapon on center mass and fire!!!..... It is going to be FAST, very fast, as fast as you can get that gun and pull that trigger multiple times. None of this fire once and observe the target. Mind set is always to put at least 3 shots on target, 2 in the torso and one in the head on a single target. Multiple targets are double tapped and then, come back for head shots.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:20:18 AM »

I totally agree, except for the "hand on your gun" part. In many places that would be enough to get you charged with "menacing with a firearm" and that is a serious offence. We pretty much have to accept the fact that the law places us at a handicap against those who don't obey the law. We can only try to make the best of a bad situation.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:46:05 AM »

hand on gun still in pocket ? Concept makes a S&W mod 38 or 340 all the rage .