Question about cannon flintlock

[cannonmn]

This item showed up for sale at our monthly gun club meeting, priced reasonably so I bought it.  The lanyard and handle on it are not old, despite what the previous owner told me.  He also thought the flint was "original" but I think not as the leather doesn't show much age.  Unfortunately it looks like he went over the whole thing with emery cloth or something (when will these people LEARN that's a no-no!)

This is one of those "when it rains it pours" stories; the man said he had bought a few more like this from the same party, and would sell me another at the same price as this one.  I wrote him a check including postage and asked him to send it to me asap.

The lock is a typical English naval cannon lock ca. early 19th C.  What I don't understand is why there's no flame exit hole in the flashpan.  Other cannon flintlocks I've seen always seem to have a vent hole in the side of the pan to let the flame shoot out into the vent pan of the big gun to which the lock is attached.  I started to think maybe that hole was drilled when the lock was mated up to a gun, since the corresponding place on the cannon's vent pan might vary somewhat in location.  Then maybe this lock had never been issued, thus no hole drilled.  However, the front mounting hole at the bottom of the lock certainly shows evidence of having the wingnut tightened down on it for mounting on a gun. 

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums50/?action=view&current=301dfa98.pbw

[KABAR2]

Cannonmn,

It's hard to tell the age of this lock though the frizzen does not look like it has tons of use,

could it possibly be one of the repro's out of Canada hence not drilled as noted?

[Double D]

Looks to me as if the lock lays sideway on the gun and the dished pan is catch the sparks and drop them in the vent

[cannonmn]

could it possibly be one of the repro's out of Canada hence not drilled as noted?

Nope, this one's antique based on close examination, the places that were hard to get to for cleaning have a patina you can't fake.  Plus the workmanship is "old world craft."  I have no question it is all antique except the lanyard.

If I had one of those repro's in my hand it would take all of a few seconds to point out how you could tell it is a repro.  I've been picking out repros and fakes for many years on the Ebay discussion boards; have lots of practice.

Looks to me as if the lock lays sideway

I haven't seen one like that, not that there couldn't be one.  The British naval locks like this one are all designed to be mounted on the right side of the vent mass.  The two lock mounting holes in all the British cannons I've seen are transverse, at right angles to the bore, and go though the bottom of the vent mass.

[dan610324]

if it would be one of the canadian copies I must give my highest respect to the manufacturer
its too good to be a copy
how many would think about such an tiny detail as to put the slots in the screw heads a little bit off center ?
but it would be very interesting to see the inside in detail

[cannonmn]

it would be very interesting to see the inside in detail

I'd love to take it apart but the screw ends, or at least one or two of them, seem to have been peened over then filed flush, so removing them would break off the thin peen flange.  The peening is more pronounced in the screw going thorugh that hemispherical knobby nut; looks like the maker didn't want it to work loose, ever.  I suspect "corrective maintenance" on these may have been a quick toss overboard and sending a midshipman running for a replacement from the armory.

[RocklockI]

only very good flinters will work very good upside down or sdeways with any concistancy.

It's my opine that it went on up right on to the 'raised breech' and I'm fairly sure the primiming tray would be liberaly dosed with powder .

"we don need no stinkin pan hole !"

Gary

[Double D]

I don't see a a British Broadarrow? 

[cannonmn]

I don't see a a British Broadarrow? 

Nope, I've never seen one on any of the cannon flintlocks I've seen in person or on those I've seen pictured in books;  strange.

[cannonmn]

I've made an assumption that the lock is English, but as indicated by DD's question, there's reason for doubt.  I'd like to determine the nationality of this cannon flintlock more definitely. It looks like some other English cannon locks I've seen, but lacks any marking. This general pattern with two transverse holes near the bottom, one of which is slightly elongated, and this shape of brass housing seems fairly common as I've seen several.

One dimension you can't get from the ruler in the photos is the thickness of the brass housing, which is 13/16 inch.

French and Russian locks I've seen are well-marked with the manufacturing arsenal's name. Those are quite different in design from this lock.

I'd like to find photos and/or specifications for American-made flint cannon locks, if any existed, and I suspect they did. Do you know of any specimens, or illustrated references?

Do you know the nationality of the lock pictured, or when this particular variation first came into use?

I've found a few photos of flint cannon locks in Blackmore's THE ARMOURIES OF THE TOWER OF LONDON, V. 1, The Ordnance, HMSO, London, 1976. This lock in general resembles plate 76, item 265, "Ashton's Percussion Conversion Lock" but differs in some details. The Ashton lock shown as item 265 is a simple percussion conversion of an existing British flintlock.

[A.Roads]

A lovely lock - from your description it is of a quality that excludes it from being one of the repros coming out of India.
Its design is almost certainly English - It compares well with the c1820s Millar's pattern on display at Fort Nelson.

[cannonmn]

Thanks Adrian, that helps a lot.  When I downloaded the larger image using your link, I can see the engraving on the lock.  Interestingly some changes were made after that pattern was built, namely adding the mounting bolt holes in the bottom, and interchanging the sides.  The vent pan protrudes from the left side of mine, but from the right side of Ft. Nelson's example.  Also, it appears that two steel aligment pins have been added, one front and one rear.   

Meanwhile I've found a copy of a manuscript by a RN rear admiral, dated 1843, regarding gunnery practice on HMS EXCELLENT, which has a sketch of a lock of this type, including its internal parts.  I'll post an image of the drawing soon.

[Victor3]

only very good flinters will work very good upside down or sdeways with any concistancy.

It's my opine that it went on up right on to the 'raised breech' and I'm fairly sure the primiming tray would be liberaly dosed with powder .

"we don need no stinkin pan hole !"

Gary

 Indeed. And only with 'light' priming charges that will float in midair so as not to fall out of the pan.

 I think maybe the hole in cannon flintlock pans just seemed like a good idea. Couldn't hurt, right? Considering that a lit pile of BP within an inch of a 2nd pile is going to light it regardless, a hole probably wasn't really necessary.

[cannonmn]

This might help satisfy the person who wanted to look inside the lock:







http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums51/IMG_1512.jpg


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums51/IMG_1513.jpg

[cannonmn]

Info on the introduction of flint gunlocks into the British Royal Navy (page 457):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ew2VQiCIj1MC&ots=pwckVQUDdn&dq=sir%20howard%20douglas%20naval%20gunnery&pg=PA457#v=onepage&q=flint&f=false