When to use gas checks?

[xit]

Hi Guys

I have been studying some on cast bullets and am slowly improving on my ignorance.  But I am confused and need insight.

When does a shooter need gas checks?  I bought some cactus plain 405 grain hard lead bullets and have shot about fifty of them.  I loaded 39 grains of 4895 powder and had no problem with leading.  I did not know what gas checks were at that point and ignorance was rather blissful. 

Now that I have discovered more about gas checks I am curious as to when a person needs the copper discs.  Also on the Hornady site I could not find .458 gas checks listed at all. If gas checks were needed with a 45/70 one would have expected Hornady to build them. 

I am going to acquire a book but would appreciate information on this in the mean time.

Thanks for now.

Pat 

[stimpylu32]

Pat

This will explain it better than I can .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_check

stimpy

[FredWT]

Midway offers them (45) for $36.49 per 1000. If your load leads, reduce the velocity. If that is not an option, try a gas checked projectile. If that is not an option, partially seat a gas check cup down in your straight walled case, maybe a 1/16 of an inch and then seat the flat base projectile right on top of the GC. The GC will be very tight in the case and will not move or twist. If no leading, no need, don't bother.

[xit]

Thanks Stimpy and Fred for the tips. I appreciate them all. 

[Steve P]

You need gas checks when the cast bullet you are going to shoot has a smaller base area that is designed to accomodate the gas check.  If you have a flat base bullet, you do not need a gas check. 

Now, different question, when do you buy a bullet mold that makes gas check bullets vs flat base bullets.  Depends on your lead alloy, velocity, powder, gun, etc etc.  If pushing your load over 1000 fps, general consensus is to get a gas check bullet.  Some folks will say over 1200 fps.  It all depends on the load they were using when they had to "get the lead out"....... 

Steve

[sbhg]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,246.html
How would any of these wads work w/ smokeless powder and hardcast bullets?
Would they eliminate any leading or would the edges burn or let powder gasses thru the edge and cause some leading?
I'm too lazy right now to dig out some books and try and find the information. Thanks.

[45-70.gov]

when  you  have  extra  money


i  try  to make things work  without  them
but  you may not be as  cheap as  i am

[stimpylu32]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,246.html
How would any of these wads work w/ smokeless powder and hardcast bullets?
Would they eliminate any leading or would the edges burn or let powder gasses thru the edge and cause some leading?
I'm too lazy right now to dig out some books and try and find the information. Thanks.

Some guys will use the Poly wads for rounds like the 45/70 when loading light charges of fast burning powders , myself , I never saw the need for them in anything but Black Powder loads , and not always then .

stimpy

[GH1]

If I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that I can use a gas checked cast bullet instead of a jacketed bullet and still load my .357 Magnum to it's full potential.  Is that right?  Becasue right now my magnum loads aren't much more powerful than a .38 Special, out of fear of leading.
GH1

[Dezynco]

I usually use gas checks when I expect velocities over about 1400 fps.  For plinking loads below that speed I don't usually use them, even if the bullet has a gas check base (gas checks are getting to be expensive lately).  Generally speaking, you CAN push a gas checked lead bullet just as fast as it's jacketed counterpart, but I have found that my accuracy is not as good (could be the alloy that I'm using - wheel weights).  The gas check prevents the base of the bullet from melting when using slower buring rifle powders.

In order for you to use gas checks, of course the bullet must have a gas check base, and you must crimp them on using a die.  The die can be the same die that you use in your lubri-sizing machine, one of the Lee push-through type dies, or a special "gas check seating die".

If your bullet does not have a cutout for a gas check, then it would be best not to push the velocities, especially if you're using a softer lead alloy.

[GH1]

I don't cast my own,I was planning on buying pre-cast bullets with the gas checks already on them.  I'll have to do some cost comparisons between jacketed & GC.
Thanks for the reply.
GH1

[Lloyd Smale]

do i need gas checks on my pistol bullets? NO do i want gas checks on my pistol bullets? YES. I have owned probably a 100 sixguns through the years and can only remember a couple of them that the favorite load for that particular gun didnt use a gas checked bullet. For the most part gas checked bullets are easier to find accurate loads with. They about eliminate leading and allow you to use softer alloys at the same speed you normaly use harder alloys. The only real down side that i can think of to them is having to pay for them. But to me 40 bucks invested into a 1000 bullets isnt a bad deal.

[jlchucker]

Hi Guys

I have been studying some on cast bullets and am slowly improving on my ignorance.  But I am confused and need insight.

When does a shooter need gas checks?  I bought some cactus plain 405 grain hard lead bullets and have shot about fifty of them.  I loaded 39 grains of 4895 powder and had no problem with leading.  I did not know what gas checks were at that point and ignorance was rather blissful. 

Now that I have discovered more about gas checks I am curious as to when a person needs the copper discs.  Also on the Hornady site I could not find .458 gas checks listed at all. If gas checks were needed with a 45/70 one would have expected Hornady to build them. 

I am going to acquire a book but would appreciate information on this in the mean time.

While you've generated quite a few opinions in this thread, you really need to get the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook or the Lyman Reloading Manual.  Lyman has made bullet molds for lots of years, and their history goes back into the days when lead bullets were pretty much all that was available.  They discuss the gas check issue with some insight, since they make molds in both plainbase and gascheck versions.  I've used both designs, made by not only Lyman but RCBS and Lee as well.  I tend to agree with Lloyd Smale's comments, and don't as a rule use them for pistol applications.  Lately, I've been scaling back my rifle velocities and am about 50-50 when it comes to loading for those applications, depending on whether the bullet itself is designed for a gascheck or not.  I've only got one 210 grain mold for 30-06 use, and that gets a gascheck.  With a cast bullet you really don't need a lot of velocity to get good penetration on game animals.  Those plainbase bullets penetrate really deep, so shot placement is more of a concern for me.

Thanks for now.

Pat 

[Steve P]

If I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that I can use a gas checked cast bullet instead of a jacketed bullet and still load my .357 Magnum to it's full potential.  Is that right?  Becasue right now my magnum loads aren't much more powerful than a .38 Special, out of fear of leading.
GH1

Do they still make jacketed bullets for 357?  I haven't purchased any for probably 10 years or better.  I shoot cast bullets almost exclusively in my revolvers and semi-auto pistols.  Good Hornady gas check and good (blue) lube keeps the lead away.  My magnum loads are truly magnum loads.

Steve

[jlchucker]

Somehow my earlier posting, which was a response to a quote, got mixed in with a posting signed by Pat.  The last paragraph before the "thanks for now" and Pat's signature, is mine.  I was agreeing with Lloyd's comments about not using gaschecks for too many pistol applications.  Since then came SteveP's posting about them still making jacketed bullets for the .357.  Steve obviously shoots a lot of hot loads out of a pistol, and recommends gaschecks. His bullets are probably not flying any faster than my .357 cast loads out of a rifle, and for these (1500-1600 fps and upwards), I'd use a gascheck too.  Like Steve, I rarely shoot anything but cast bullets out of my handguns--and they are also the bullets of choice for most of my rifle handloads.  Nothing wrong with a good semiwadcutter!

[GH1]

Do they still make jacketed bullets for 357?  I haven't purchased any for probably 10 years or better.  I shoot cast bullets almost exclusively in my revolvers and semi-auto pistols.  Good Hornady gas check and good (blue) lube keeps the lead away.  My magnum loads are truly magnum loads.

Steve
[/quote]

Yes, jacketed .357 bullets are readily available.  I don't use them bcause i like to save money, particularly when target shooting.  However, eventually I'd like to hunt with mine, that's why I was thinking about the GC. What's the point of having a .357 if it's no more powerful than a .38?
GH1

[stimpylu32]

GH1

From looking over some data , even using a mid level cast 158g bullet without a gas check you will only loose around 300 fps compared to say the Hornady XTP 158g jacketed bullet .

In my 41GNR for example , I run a non-GC bullet of a just wheel weight alloy @ almost 1700 fps and have yet to have a leading issue , the key with cast is to have the proper sized bullet , so there is no reason why you can't have a true Magnum and save some $$'s by using cast over jacketed .

stimpy 

[GH1]

Thanks for the heads-up stimpy.  I think the next box of bullets I order wil be 158 gr.  I was using 125 to save a few bucks.  
According to Taurus, the most I can shoot in my gun is 158 @ 1450 Fps.  I would like to try 180 gr.  I posted the question on the Taurus forum so hopefully someone there can give me an answer. I'd hate to blow my gun up.
GH1

[45-70.gov]

Hi Guys

I have been studying some on cast bullets and am slowly improving on my ignorance.  But I am confused and need insight.

When does a shooter need gas checks?  I bought some cactus plain 405 grain hard lead bullets and have shot about fifty of them.  I loaded 39 grains of 4895 powder and had no problem with leading.  I did not know what gas checks were at that point and ignorance was rather blissful. 

Now that I have discovered more about gas checks I am curious as to when a person needs the copper discs.  Also on the Hornady site I could not find .458 gas checks listed at all. If gas checks were needed with a 45/70 one would have expected Hornady to build them. 

I am going to acquire a book but would appreciate information on this in the mean time.

Thanks for now.

Pat 

also  don't confuse  CAST  with  SWAGED