Author Topic: Info on ruger Old Army (Read 1837 times)

Good time Charlie · « **on:** October 01, 2003, 05:45:36 PM »

I just recived my new stainless Old army by Ruger.I was supprised at the slop in the gun. I have a 1858 remington .44 by petta and everything is much tighter on it than the ruger. When you cock the hammer on the petta the cylinder is solid as a rock. On the ruger you can shake it around and the loading lever is just floping around under the barell. If anyone owns A ruger old army I would like to know if this is normal in this gun.

Flint · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2003, 05:21:24 AM »

I have 3 ROA's. The cylinder has some endshake, and a bit of movement at the cylinder pin, but the bore stays aligned. The loading lever parts will wiggle a bit, but they aren't screwed together as the other designs are, and some clearance is necessary to prevent binding. As long as the latch spring keeps the lever in place while shooting it shouldn't be a problem. Check the cyinder gap and fit.

howdy doody · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2003, 07:03:53 AM »

I have 4 ROAs, They are pretty much as Flint described his. I think my newer 5 1/2" stainless ones might be a shade tighter on the cylinder pins. I would go out and try yours. The ROAs are stout and will last about a lifetime, but I will have to admit that my 58 Remington repros are still my most accurate C&B. Soon I am going to try and get a pair of .36 Cal 51 Navys up and running and I am hoping good things from them. You will really enjoy your ROA, take it out and shoot it.
I like a 30gr load in mine and you can go a lot higher than that depending on the powder you like to use. I have found that #10 remington caps are just the hot ticket too. Any other help you need in the care and feeding of your new ROA, just holler :grin:

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2003, 04:34:26 PM »

I took my ROA out and shot it today. With the R&D drop in it shot about six to seven inches high. With magtech cal. With the cap & ball cyinder and thirty grains of FFF clean shot and some .454 balls, this is what I had on hand. It calls for .457. They shot better. With the exception of bullet creep in the cyinder from the recoil. I will not shoot C&B again with out the .457 balls.

As near as I can tell I have some work to do to find out just what will work best! Thanks for any and all help. I need it!

howdy doody · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2003, 05:42:48 PM »

Good time Charlie,
Of course you are aware that all loads will shoot higher or lower than what that big old tall sight that comes with your ROA is set for. I believe they set that up for some kind of hunting load and of course with my little 30 gr loads I had to do a lot of file work on paper to get them right. I might as well say that the windage was great on 3 of mine, but one of my 5 1/2 stainless pistols was off. So, being the gamer I am I opened up my rear sight slots on both and of couse took a bit extra off the side mine shot to. You have to take the time and do this stuff on paper and from a rest also. Sort of a fine tune if you will. Use KY windage till you decide on a load.
I want you to quit using those 454 balls please. Even though most chainfires have been proven to have started at the rear, why take chances. Get some 457 balls and always look for a nice thin ring of lead sheered off to satisfy yourself you are making a good seal and of course when you do you will keep that ball on top of the powder where it will give you the best accuracy and seal your powder from flashover besides. Then give the thing a try and see what happens. :grin:

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 07, 2003, 01:47:42 PM »

Don't forget the Ox Yoke Wonder Wads. I take mine and smear a little T/C or Ox Yoke lube on them and sneak them into the microwave for 10-12 seconds when the wife's gone. That melts the lube into the wad and keeps them from being messy to handle from then on. I just keep them in an open sandwich bag in my possibles. For best accuracy and hunting, I load 40gr 2F then the wad and finally the .457 ball. 25yd groups will do well under 2" if you hold it right and shoots to the sights without alteration. With the wads there are no chainfires, no lube leaking into your holster, and more accuracy than grease on top. American Pioneer(Clean Shot) also works great.

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #6 on:** October 07, 2003, 04:51:35 PM »

While waiting for my .457 balls for my ROA I have been shootin my 58 remington repo. I always use wonder wads! I shot 30 grs of clean shot and 454 buffalo balls. It shot very well,but that seems to be a really heavy load. With a load that heavy the smoke is unreal! You have to wait to see the target. With that load I noticed some discolorration on the brass frame where the barrel and cylinder meet. I think I am going to try some other powder. Clean shot has to much smoke.

Ya'll shoot where your aimin now!

howdy doody · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2003, 01:53:59 PM »

Charlie, you are soooo correct in your testing. Nothing smokes as much as CleanShot. Period. It is also the most corrosive powder I know of on brass, although it won't so much of anything along the lines of corrosion in cylnders and barrels. Try Pyrodex and happen to like the pyrodex select the best. 30 grs. wad and ball. You could try 777, but that stuff needs to be downloaded. It is way more powerful than true black or the other subs. You would need about 20gr loads and ram onto the powder. Sometimes you need a 38 bullet to ram onto because rams on some guns like ROAs aren't long enough to ram a 20gr load properly.
Keep at it, that is what is fun about BP shooting. The experimenting and testing. :grin:

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:30:10 PM »

Howdy I got some 777 and on the contaner it said the ROA load was 35 gr. I tried it at 35 and it shot great! However I still had one ball to creep in the the gun. Or one far enough to not let the cylinder turn. I got the .457 balls by speer. I could tell by the sound of the blast the 777 is more powerful than clean shot. If this ball creep keeps up I may need to send this cylinder back to Ruger. Thanks for the help and encouragement.

howdy doody · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:54:00 PM »

Howdy again Charlie,
I wonder if you saw a nice ring of lead come from those balls when you rammed them. I always do with speer 457 balls. If not, then you may very well have a cylinder or cylinders that aren't right.
35gr load of 777 must be stout. I tried a 30gr load and it about spun me around. I shoot cowboy action where big muzzle jump and a lot of recoil won;t do much for your scores. I do know cowboy shooters that shoot 777 as low as 15gr in there ROAs, but I don't think it is enough smoke for me, so I have been shooting CleanShot/American Pioneer. How can they load 15gr you are now wondering and have the ball compress onto the powder? Well, extended rams is the answer. You could however stick a loose 38 lead bullet onto the ball after ramming to ram it once again and seat the ball. Now I run extended rams on my ROAs myself, but that is because I do not use wads. I just add 30gr of CS and ball and ram. This is great and accuracy is there for me at 15 yards. That is about as far as I see pistol targets out and a lot are more like 10 yards. I had to file my front sights. This is cowboy stuff and it is a speed contest. In your case, if you can handle 35gr of 777, I would try that for a while. Do not mess with sights unless you decide on a keeping a specific load and powder in your shooters. You cannot very easily put metal back on. Ruger should stand by their product, but I have never heard of bad cylinders myself. Most complain about windage on the front sight and I have one I found to shoot right on me. I corrected it when I opened up my rear sight notches, another cowboy thing for faster aquisition times. No I do not have anything I shoot that is box stock and not many cowboy shooters do, but mine are not race guns either. I do have a pair of 51 Navys that I will be souping up this winter, by cutting the barrels to 5 1/2" and welding the slots for the hammers and all that kind of stuff. I hope you can get yours shooting right, if not send it back to Ruger and hopefully they will get you fixed up. :grin:

Chris · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2003, 07:14:53 PM »

HD:

Where can a guy get an "extended ram" for a ROA? I could machine one...but not in stainless.

Thanks in advance!

...Chris

howdy doody · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2003, 10:13:46 AM »

Howdy Chris,
Check back tonight and I will take some pictures of my rams and how they were made. I also know of some other methods of extending too and I will explain then pard.

Flint · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2003, 10:49:58 AM »

I had two bad cylinders in ROA. Seems there was a burr at the mouth of the chambers that sheared the ball undersized so it is loose once seated. Sent one back to Ruger, expecting a new cylinder, but they scraped it out with a (triangular?) scraping tool, as witnessed by the marks left in the chamber mouths. This I could have done myself, easily and much more neatly. And I did on the second SS ROA. The lesson is, Ruger is rough in the chamber finish, and rougher in the repair. If your chamber mouth is undersized, scrape or chamfer it, and using a caliper to measure it, make sure the mouth is as large as (at least), as the deeper chamber bore.

howdy doody · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2003, 02:12:17 PM »

Chris and others,
Here are some pics of my rams that I was trying to describe. Somtimes pics do it a lot better.

Now a friend I used to work with made these up for me. You can see they are about 5/8" longer than the standard one that came with the ROA. I wanted to ram without ball distortion, so he machined the cup in the ends as shown just like the standard rams. The picture of the extended rams in place in the ROA will give you and idea about room there for loading. I have no problem setting a ball on top of the cylinder and rotating under the ram. You could not do that with a conical however. It takes a end mill to make the slots and special cutter to boot. He told me he had to take 3 passes on reach slot cut to match up exactly. The rest is machined on a lathe to the same dimentions as the regular ruger ram.
Fortunately for me this friend has a machine shop at home and was able to make me 7 rams and unfortunately he doesn't want to make any more. We figured we could sell them for no more than $20 each and he thought that wasn't enough. I have 3, Doc Shapiro has 2 and Black Jack Traven has 2. I actually could use one more myself, since I have 4 ROAs, but they are a snap to swap and I do that.
Now, I have heard of another way. That is to drill dead center and tap for threads. Then install a bolt and use the head of the bolt to ram the balls. I have heard of the setup and never tried it. In my mind the ball would get flattened in the middle and the bolt could possibly break off too.
Someone once suggested cutting the ram in two and adding a section to the middle. That to me would seem hard to do and you don't want anything to be other than perfectly straight. So, this is what me and my non shooting friend came up with and I like it just fine and I am always hoping someone will copy it and maybe even market them to cowboy action shooters. CAS shooters do not need to be accurate past 15 yards usually and I know one pard with the rams like mine that loads 15gr of 777 and a Circle Fly wad and can ram right on down to eliminate the space and he gives a light compression to the load. I can't fault his combo at all,, since I have never been able to beat him and he has many championships to my none. I do like more smoke though and I shoot 30gr of CleanShot/ American Pioneer FFFG and no wad. I compress heavily and I like the load. Everyone is different and that makes it fun. :grin:

Chris · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2003, 04:58:49 PM »

HD:

Got it! Got my creative juices flowing...now it's off to the tool room to talk to my guys. Hate to give up on all of the smoke...but you already know how difficult it is to get the "holy black" in Kalifornia. I have to drive to Oroville or Reno to get it.

Can't tell you how much I appreciate the effort...you really went the extra mile. I holler back once I get a part(s) built.

Thanks again!!!!

...Chris

howdy doody · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2003, 05:11:09 PM »

Chris, I hope I did help. Make some extras it doesn't take long to make more, it is all mostly setup time. By the way they are made of drill rod pard. Keep 'em lubed and they look a lot like stainless don't they? Good luck on your project and if you shoot clean shot you will get a lot of smoke from say about 20gr and up, just what you prefer.
Say, where do you live? Are you a CAS shooter? You are right about no one carrying true black. Not around here either, the shops think it is too much hassle for the little they sell. :grin:

Chris · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 2003, 07:37:39 PM »

HD:

I live in Ahhhnold's new home town...Sacto. Not a CAS...just a paper puncher.

I really enjoy of all types of BP shooting...revolvers, pistols, shotguns, etc. I shoot .22 bullseye quite a bit...but BP is my favorite. Pumping rounds though "modern firearms" is a lot of fun. But, burning black powder is my favorite...slow and civilized!

Be Safe! ...Chris

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2003, 10:57:43 PM »

Howdy you are right.After fireing a few rounds with the 777 I had to back off on my load. It wasn't to bad in the ROA,but in my 58 remington it was just to much for a gun that light! Have gone BP crazy just orderd a .50 Hawken long gun.Maybe later can move up to a repeater. Keepem smoking!

howdy doody · « **Reply #18 on:** October 17, 2003, 05:15:59 AM »

Good Time Charlie, you have hit on the exact reason I love BP shooting. It is the experimenting and trying out loads and stuff. That is where I get most of my fun. :grin:

Chris,
If you get a hankering to try cowboy action, give me an email or pm message. I shoot near every weekend all around Sacto. We shoot twice at Sac Valley shooting center, once in Davis and I shoot Manteca which is my home club. There is also a shoot monthly in Richmond and they are starting a shoot in Placerville. If ya get a hankering, just let me know. As they say, it is the most fun you can have with your clothes on...........

unspellable · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2003, 07:39:22 AM »

I have two stainless ROA's. On both of them the chambers do not line up just right with the bore. I would think the only cure for this is a new cylinder as the bolt notches must be slightly out of place.

Any one had any experience with this and what Ruger would do to fix it?

Second question, is what's what in the way of conversion cylinders for the ROA? I have one, but I don't know the make, no markings on it. It does line up with properly with the bore on both guns. With 45 Colt factory loads I shot a better group than I ever got with cap and ball.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2003, 08:37:01 AM »

I assume you used a range rod or similar gauge to determine that the chambers do not line up. If a ground and polished rod will just fit down the barrel, you can use that to determine if there is an offset. If all the chambers are off the same amount, you can shift the cylinder slightly by enlarging the cylinder stop hole in the frame on the appropriate side and then staking a burr on the opposite side to move the bolt in the right direction. It's fairly easy to get .005 to .010 this way. If the various chambers are off by different amounts then you need a new cylinder. Good luck.

howdy doody · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2003, 08:50:23 AM »

Unspellable, pard they make two kinds of conversion cylinders for the ROA. Yhe one that has been around for a while is the R&D version. Now there is another made by Kirst. I have shot both in friends guns and they were OK. I have heard that the Kirst is a better setup, but I do not shoot a conversion and see no reason to spend that kind of money on one myself. I have Ruger RVs when the cartridge bug hits me occasionally. BTW, both those outfits make conversion cylinders for the 58 Remington repros too. Again, I have no desire to get them, but I always liked how smooth Clint Eastwood swapped them out in Pale Rider :grin:
As for your cylinders, I have no answer unless they might have been swapped from one ROA to another or something. Better talk to Ruger or send them to Rowdy Yates at Lee's Gunsmithing in Orange Calif. He is the premier ROA tuner and is great on other C&Bs too.
I myself have found lately and after many, many rounds through my 5 1/2 ROAs that one of them has slop and I can see that the reason is the thickness of my bolt/cam. I do not know if it is pounded thin or it is some kind of wear. I test by bringing the hammer to full cock in all slots and they are the same, so I know I have the bolt problem. I will order another one and install and fit it once I get it. They do need fitting on rugers too. Easy enough to do, but not drop in replacement. It really tightens up play a lot. In your case, it must be a ruger problem and I would get some warranty out of them. I have never had or heard of as much trouble with ROAs as I am hearing lately. Maybe they are having a QA problem or are getting sloppy. I hope that isn't the case. If you want to sell something new for $400, it had better be worth that much and be of good quality too. There are alternatives for those that want to shoot C&B. You can load the hell out of a Walker and if you are a big enough boy to heft it, then you can knock down a tree with one of those fully loaded up. Let's not go there though. I think you need your ROAs checked out. :grin:

unspellable · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2003, 09:52:50 AM »

All chambers on both revolvers are off by about the same amount. I can see this by the simple expedient of shining a pencil light down the bore. Now this doesn't prove the bolt is wrong, it could be by the cylinders are both off by the same amount. I have a Taurus with a similar problem in which the chambers, cylinder flutes, and bolt notches appear to have been machined on three different indexes.

Now if I were to fix this problem by moving the bolt, then my conversion cylinder would be off by the same amount in the opposite direction. At present it appears to be dead on. A quandary. This conversion cylinder fits either frame but I find the original Ruger cylinders are not interchangeable.

I bought one of these ROA's used about seventeen years ago. The other I bought used about one year ago.

As for the conversion cylinders, which one do I have and how do the others work? The one I have has a back plate that rotates with the cylinder and has six firing pins in it.

Flint · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2003, 09:59:11 AM »

Unspellable, to determine if the conversion is R&D or Kirst, the R&D has 6 firing pins, and the backplate turns with the cylinder. The Kirst has one firing pin and the backplate does not revolve. Normally, both Kirst and R&D have the makers name stamped in the backplate. If there is none, it may be some other maker, unknown.

howdy doody · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2003, 11:59:03 AM »

If I am not mistaken the Kirst has five cylinder chambers and a place to rest the hammer. The pins are also straight and the R&D has angled pins. Like I said I have seen both, but own none. For $300 I would probably just buy a cartridge gun myself, but folks love their conversions too. I suppose the size bullet you load in your .45lc brass doesn't need to be as large as what you need for the C&B cylinder. I do not know.
I have to think the trouble Unspellable has might warrant him contacting Ruger. The problem I was trying to explain wasn't a timing problem, it was slop in each stop cause by a bolt that has become thinner for some reason. :-)

Flint · « **Reply #25 on:** October 26, 2003, 06:43:48 AM »

Howdy, the bore of the Uberti is 454 and the Pietta is 451, so the 45Colt bullet works as is. The percussion ball is large just to get a tight fit in the chamber, and a good flat to bite the rifling. The 36 conversion to 38Special has to use a Hollow Base Wadcutter to open up like a Minie'ball to the 375 bore from 357.

howdy doody · « **Reply #26 on:** October 27, 2003, 07:44:12 AM »

Flint, yes that explains the bullet sizes. Like I said I have zero experience with the conversions. I can see where it would be nice to have the capability of C&B or cartridge, but I started out with cartridge and have plenty of cartridge guns.
Now yesterday I shot the 5 1/2 ROAs and for the first time I had an indexing problem in one of my guns. I had it on two stages in a row. The cylinder actually felt locked up solid, but after many seconds on the clock I got it freed up. I think I shot one stage in 95 seconds ( sheesh) I took the cylinder out and lubed the heck out of the hand slot and it was fine for the last two stages. Maybe some debris, but not caps, as all my caps were still on the nipples when I went to the unloading bench. I cleaned my guns at home and could see nothing wrong, but I will check that one further to see if I have a burr or something. I have had my ROAs bind, but never lock up like that before and since it did it twice, I figure I am having some kind of problem. I have a lot of rounds thru the 5 1/2s now. I have shot them steady since january and I shoot every week and I have shot a bunch of 12 stage matches this year too. Could I be wearing out a Ruger? Nawwwww. :grin:

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #27 on:** October 27, 2003, 12:37:18 PM »

Naw Howdy I think it will take a lot more than that to ware one out!

howdy doody · « **Reply #28 on:** October 27, 2003, 12:59:36 PM »

Since I posted last, I had a chance to take the culprit ROA apart and I found some rough spots that I stoned out here and there, but no real reason to lock up a gun. As I was reinstalling the cylinder it dawned on me that it is possible I had some debris in one of the indexing holes and maybe it locked up twice on the very same cylinder position too. I can't remember. I took the cylinder completely out at the shoot and lubed everything and maybe whatever was in the hole fell out at that point and that is why it was fine the rest of the shoot. Hmmmm. I will be watching that right one close next time. Yes, I know which is right and left. Mine are both different and I shoot one with one hand and the other with my other hand.
You are right, wear out a Ruger, I doubt that. :grin: