comparing the .45 in-line to the .45 muzzle loader

[earl]

What are the velocities of bullets from .45 in-lines as compared to .45 muzzloaders?

[WD45]

well, That kind of depends on which 2 you are comparing.
Take two 45 cal rifles that will both take the same max powder charge and the difference in velocity will be very little providing you are shooting the same load from both guns. Now compare an older sidelock that will only take a max charge of say 100 gr BP and a modern inline that will take well over that and you COULD make a large difference.... uuuu
did that make any sense

[pendennis]

You may want to check some of the black powder books, especially those from Lyman and Sam Fadala.  They have some very accurate ballistic tables in them.  As with any muzzleloader, side hammer or inline, black powder is very inefficient as a propellant, and a percussion cap doesn't provide a very good ignition.

That stated, with loads of up to 125 grains, a good caplock side hammer, such as the Pedersoli Tryon and Mortimer, will provide very high relative velocity.  I have a Pedersoli Tryon Creedmoor and a Euroarms Volunteer, and have loaded them with as much as 125 gr. of FFFg, and they accurate at ranges out to 600 yards.  Chronographed loads have shown velocities of up to 1450 fps.  That's in the same ball park as the 45-120 3.25" Sharps, which I also shoot.  The bullets in both range from 470 to 535 grains from a barrel which is twisted 1:18 or 1:20.

A side hammer using a round ball, is a different story entirely.  The maximum effective load is probably upward of 85 grains of FFFg.  It pushes the 133 gr. patched round ball at about 1700-1800 fps.  The twist is also very slow, about 1:66.  My .45 caliber Browning Mountain rifle gets this velocity.

This is what makes muzzleloading so much fun.  There's something for almost everyone.

[crow_feather]

Earl,

I like the way you put your question - 45 in-line vs. 45 muzzleloader.

The difference in velocity really dosen't make much difference as compared to velocities in modern rifles.  Both in-line and traditional black powder rifles do their jobs well at their respective ranges.  The traditional rifle works out to 125 yards or plus a bit, if you are real good with iron sights.  The in-line rifle is good out to whatever their companies can exaggerate their range to be. :wink:

The big difference in the two types of black powder rifle is more in the type of person pulling the trigger.

C  F

[Underclocked]

C-F ...... BS.  It's code.

[crow_feather]

Underclocked,


As I said - - - It's the type of person.

[mamaflinter]

What are the velocities of bullets from .45 in-lines as compared to .45 muzzloaders?

Earl first off I'd like to welcome you to the forum. There are alot of knowledgeable people here ready to answer your questions so feel free to ask anytime.

I think you are asking the difference between a .45 inline and a .45 traditional sidelock? If this is the case, and assuming that you do NOT mean the Savage inline, then you should have the same velocities. The companies are putting out alot of hype stating if you have an inline you can shoot further blah, blah, blah. It's HYPE! You'll also find that if you shoot the maximum charges, not only will you get kicked harder, but you're going to get more fouling and decreased accuracy. The best accuracy is achieved about mid-ways or slightly more than halfway through their loading data. So say they recommend loads between 70-150 grains, you will NORMALLY find optimal accuracy at around 110-120 grains.

Now if you are talking of the Savage muzzleloader that's a whole new can of worms.  The Savage muzzleloader is the only muzzleloader that is is SAFE to shoot smokeless powder in! This muzzleloader was designed for smokeless and will outshoot (distance wise) any other muzzleloader on the market.  It is also highly accurate once you find your rifles pet load. There are a couple of sites that you might want to look at if you are referring to the Savage. These sites were designed by Savage shooters for discussing the Savage and sharing information on new powders used and developing loads, to new products being tested for use in the Savage. The inventor of the Savage is a regular contributor as is Toby Bridges, one of the promoters of the Savage. The first site is www.sav10ml.com however this one doesn't allow interaction. The Savage muzzleloading message board can be found at http://www.dream-tools.com/tools/messages.mv?date+savagemuzzleloader+

Now with all that said, I have to tell you something else. Just because a rifle is stated to be accurate out to say 150 yards, it's only accurate out to the SHOOTERS maximum shooting range. So if you can only accurately shoot out to 75 yards, and your rifle is stated that it's max. range is 150, it doesn't do you or the game you are hunting any good to shoot at those extended ranges if you don't practice at those ranges to become proficient.

[Underclocked]

Oops, you sneaked in there Donna.  This wasn't directed at you as I don't sense the same snob attitude from you, ever.

C_F, I guess you got me.  Seems a rather shallow way to judge character though, don't you think?   One thing in common about devout advocates of the "traditional???" way, they all seem to be superior in their own minds.

You can look at this from any angle you wish, even from a pedestal, the only thing affected is what you carry to the bench or field besides a delusional self-image.  All are muzzleloaders and to say otherwise is to argue about an arc vs a line.  Seems a waste to me.  Neither choice says a darn thing about your character, at least not about anything that really counts.

I started out shooting sidelocks some 30-odd years ago and still admire the fine lines of a good traditional rifle.  Just don't happen to own an Italian or Spanish made true traditional at the moment.

[mamaflinter]

Underclocked I'm always lurking in the shadows. LOL No you're right I am not one to give anyone an attitude. The way I see it is this, I like what I like, but if you like something else that's great. Live and let live is my motto. I believe we should encourage as many as possible to our sport regardless of what rifle they want to shoot. I am a devout traditionalist in my shooting but I don't hold it against anyone else for their choices.

Oops, you sneaked in there Donna.  This wasn't directed at you as I don't sense the same snob attitude from you, ever.

[crow_feather]

Underclocked,
What I was refering to "in the mind of the shooter" was that the traditionalists like to relive the old days and hunt with what their great grandfathers used.  Go to historical get togethers and compete with others using the old equipment.

The modern in-line shooters are usually more interested in hunting and target shooting, not in history.  That is the difference.

Neither rifle is superior, for they are comletely different except that they load from the muzzle.  The only inferiority is in the minds of the owners.

Lets get to the Italian and Spanish historical copies.  Lyman and Thompson Center do not make a true copy of the traditional rifle.  Pedersoli does.  I wanted something that was the exact duplicate but could not afford a custom.
If the only maker of an in-line was a foreign company, I know you would immediatly return to an Amerian made traditional sidelock. :roll:  

Many years ago, us traditionalists requested a special muzzle loader season so that we could hunt with the rifles that our great grandfathers hunted with.  We were given hunts in special areas and at special times because of the handicaps of our equipment.
Some hunters wanted a modern type rifle that shot black powder so they could be legal in these hunts.  The in-line rush began.   Some people apply for the hunt, get drawn, then go to Wal Mart and plunk down the hundred bucks for a CVA in a blister pack two days before the season opens. They believe that they have a ticket for an easy kill, which was not why the season was legislated. The end result is that the amount of muzzleloading hunters far exceeds the amount of tags available for these special hunts.

Boone and Crocket was not established for a smokeless powder rifle that only differs from a mordern rifle in that it loads from the muzzle.

I don't feel that I am superior to a person that shoots an in-line.  I do feel that when an in-line shooter tries to indicate that his rifle and my rifle are basically the same, he's full of sht. (code)

C F

[Underclocked]

Maybe, if the inline was made in Spain.  I would still be unable to hit the broad side of a barn with iron sights.  

That isn't a choice I'm likely to be presented with.  If no sidelocks were made, would you shoot an inline?  Do you shoot for the sake of history or because you like to shoot?  I like to make smoke and hit my target the best way I can.  I like to shoot big hunks of lead and make my own bullets from scrap lead.  I hunt with an inline during centerfire season.  I just like it.   And yes, I shoot target - often alone and for no one's entertainment besides my own.

"The only inferiority is in the minds of the owners."  What a pompous, pious, and pathetic remark.  And I'm sorry you feel inferior.

There is no feeling of inferiority here, C-F.  I am just sick of being preached to by Dan'l wannabes that wouldn't make a good zit on a real mountain man's behind.  People are no better for choosing an arc, as much as they might like to think so.  So you shoot your way, I'll shoot mine - probably no difference will be made for or against history and 50 years from now nobody will even care.

Do you walk or ride a mule to those rendezvous?  We could all briefly act out whatever version of history we might have seen on television or read about then go back to real jobs in the real world after having a good time and perhaps believe we are better somehow than those who have a different experience.  Or not.

[crow_feather]

Underclocked,

You are probably not the best person to represent your way of thought.

C F

[Underclocked]

That makes as much sense as the rest.  

[mamaflinter]

Crow-feather Underclocked might not be able to articulate his thoughts as well as he would like, but there is room for us all in this great sport.


Ya know at one time I was like alot of other people and put down certain types of muzzleloaders because they "weren't traditional". Then I got to thinking that if we (I use the term WE to mean any person who has been in the sport long enough to know the ropes) continually have this stupid "traditional vs. inline debate, soon all we'd be able to do is talk about it since there are groups out there that look for weaknesses in the "gun world" so they can seek and destroy. So who in the h*** cares what the other guy is shooting, just so long as they are shooting!  There are those who truly enjoy and appreciate a fine flintlock for what it is, but like cars everyone has their own preference and that's fine. Let's not divide our sport even more.


Sorry I'm off the soap box now. :eek:

[crow_feather]

Underclocked, and Mama,

Will you please reread my replys.  NOWHERE did I say that in line rifles are inferior to traditional rifles.  NOWHERE did I say that those who shoot in-lines are less a person than traditional shooters.  The only thing that I said was that IN-LINE and SIDE LOCK RIFLES ARE NOT THE SAME except that they load from the muzzle. .  I DO NOT DISLIKE IN-LINE SHOOTERS, some of my best friends shoot in-lines.  I just don't like their rifles.

Mama Flinter, I have seen for years that when people gripe about what's happening with muzzleloaders, the in-liners write, YOU ARE DIVIDING THE GROUP - WE'LL ALL LOSE OUR GUNS.  That and; WELL, IT LOADS FROM THE MUZZLE.  Try something new.

There are people in the muzzle loader world that don't like in-lines. Instead of calling them names or accusing them of destroying the cause for gun ownership, accept the fact and get over it.

Underclocked, For three days every year, I teach over 1,000 fourth graders about the weapons the mountain men used when trapping.  I assist on the range for five days every year at our local historical get together. While on the range, I let any child who wants to, fire my black powder rifle - with a reduced charge.  Last year, I was with a group of people that brought Lewis and Clark living history to a local grammer and high school.  All this is done on my own time and at my own expense.

Yes, I might be less than a pimple on the ass of a mountain man.  But at least I do something to let our children know about those men.

I have no problem with either of you except that mama puts oil down the bore of her rifles and Underclocked needs to get over his inferiority complex and understand that not every one is going to think his fiberglassed stocked, smokeless shooter, that loads from the muzzle is the greatest thing since God.

In short - I don't like your rifle - get over it!

[mamaflinter]

Crow feather No one asked you to like anyone else's rifle. I might not like your rifle nor you mine, but that's ok. That's why this sport is so diverse because it draws all kinds of shooters from all age groups. I think it is more diverse than any other type of shooting sport.

Now I put oil down my barrel because that's what works for me. What do you use? I'm sure it is something that works for you. Nothing wrong with that.

I think it's a wonderful thing that you are doing to teach youngsters about the mountain man era and how things were done at that time. You should pat yourself on the back for having the opportunity to do something like that. Not everyone can do so.

Underclocked doesn't have an inferiority complex. He is just tired of the long debate that surfaces every so often.

[crow_feather]

Mama,
It is such a great debate, and if one can approach the subject with humor and friendliness, what fun can be had.

I use bore-butter, any type of natural lube that doesn't have patroleum in it.  The mountain man didn't have oil and kept his rifles clean and rust free without it.  And he didn't have to scrub his bore between shots.

Being in Idaho, there is very little humidity, and that doesn't hurt as far as the rust goes.

C F

[mamaflinter]

Mama,

I use bore-butter, any type of natural lube that doesn't have patroleum in it.  The mountain man didn't have oil and kept his rifles clean and rust free without it.  And he didn't have to scrub his bore between shots.

Being in Idaho, there is very little humidity, and that doesn't hurt as far as the rust goes.

C F

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is NOTHING natural about wonder lube/bore butter. It's made out of parrafin wax which IS a petroleum by-product.

Here's something you might enjoy reading. http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion.html

[crow_feather]

Mamaflinter,
Thanks for the info. - I'm suprised anything lasted for two months in 100 per cent humidity.  Must be good stuff.

C F

[Underclocked]

Well, all right then.  I need no one to make excuses for my lack of articulation, Mama, I do well enough at that.    

And C-F, I hereby declare a truce but Mama is exactly correct -  I am tired of this senseless debate and some of the more outspoken elitist "traditionalists" really irk me.  It just gets old, you know.   And you stir it up a bit yourself - a bit more careful articulation on your part might be called for as one sentence can be read to have multiple  meanings.  You see,  "The only inferiority is in the minds of the owners." can be interpreted to mean a couple of different things.  One way, and hopefully your true meaning, was there is only inferiority of a rifle type based upon how each person might perceive the rifle.  The other possible intended meaning  might be that the person owning the rifle is inferior.  I initially thought you meant the latter and that set me off.  

But I still disagree with your statement, "for they are comletely different except that they load from the muzzle."  They are not except by your perception.  My favorite and most accurate rifle uses #11 caps that sit on a nipple, a plunger action, the same powder that you might use if you so choose, and a bullet design that has been around for about 150 years.  How is that so completely different?  The only difference of note is the arc vs the line.  And the fact that I could outshoot you.  

I was around, hunting with a sidelock even before the onset of some of these "primitive hunts" - a few of which I took part in.   Should  I cop a holier than thou attitude because of that?  Should I apologize for now using a rifle that allows me to continue hunting and enjoying the sport?

And come on now, greatest thing since God?  Where does that come from??  Humor?

It's pretty obvious that you harbor something beyond humor in your thoughts about this non-issue but then so do I.  If humor was your target, that wasn't at all clear to me.  If so, I'm sorry I ruffled your feather (?).  

And, I can't say on the great Bore Butter debate except that I think Donna is right about the stuff.  There have been many folks sharing experiences similar to hers and also many that have seen marked improvements in accuracy when they ceased using the stuff.  I now only use it to provide a dab of lube on the base of some bullets to ease loading.

Given your location, you might get one of those big Idaho bears to chase you down to one of the rendezvous while shouting, "skin this one, pilgrims!"  I'm told bear fat used to be quite useful for a number of things including bullet lube.

[crow_feather]

Underclocked,
I have to admit that I enjoy a good discussion concerning the differences of the two types of rifles.  However, I will not attack a person who uses such a rifle - only the rifle itself. Yes, I do stir it up - but I will never go after a person on purpose - I will - hopefully with humor - tell one what I think of their in line rifle.

You are correct when you thought that the "mind of the owner" remark  meant that there is no inferior rifle between the two respective types, both are good for what they were designed to do.  The only inferiority is what people imagine them to be.

I use moose milk, same as mama, when I shoot my rifle, I only use bore butter or something like it when I lube the bore after cleaning.  For hunting, I use bore butter or something like it as I worry about the moose milk patch drying out.

Hey, I loved the "ruffled your feather" remark - that was good!

C F

[Underclocked]

The best 6 months I spent while in the Navy were while stationed near Idaho Falls.  I loved that place.  We didn't get much time off but when we did there only four things on our minds.  Hunting, fishing, and I won't mention the other two.   :-)

From Idaho Falls, it was a short drive to the Tetons to the east, the sand hills to the near north, the "badlands" to the south near Pocatello, and to the west was the high desert country.  My buddy from Mississipi and I went though over 4000 rounds of 30-06 ammo, most fired at those droves of jack-rabbits to the west.   Also managed to take mule deer, pheasant, and coyote while there as well as pretending to take pronghorn :-) (there were some really nice bucks out on the nuclear site near Arco) - even tried to hunt elk west of Challis in the primitive area and  over by Swan Valley.    When we hunted up by Challis, I turned on a backstreet to find a road leading west and took it.  It was a decent gravel road to begin with but 44 miles later it ended after a very hairy drive up past a snow storm to a fire-tower.  Good thing I was driving a Beetle.  Neither of us knew what we were doing when it came to elk hunting and never actually saw a live elk while we were hunting them.  Saw some nice ones when we weren't.

Great place to live I think.  Roots hold me here in these Ozarks but, if I had to move, Idaho would be the first place that comes to mind.  Of course my memories of Idaho are over 30 years old.  I'm guessing things have changed a lot even in that country.  Hopefully not too much.

[mamaflinter]

I use bore butter or something like it as I worry about the moose milk patch drying out.

C F

If the moose milk did "dry out" it would only be the water. The oil would still be there. Since you are in an area with sub-zero temperaturs, you could make it with rubbing alcohol instead of the water and wouldn't have any problems.

[crow_feather]

Mama,
If I used regular alcohol, might help more to drink it than to shoot it.  :wink:  

Thanks for the tip, I will have to try it - if it ever gets cold.

C F

[KING]

:-D  :-D Well...........................is nice to know that after seven weeks  of being gone away from here things are pretty much normal.  Just dont start putting hexes on each other an stuff like that ya know.  The great debate continues................stay safe................King

[Underclocked]

  Too late, King.  It's done.   :-D

[KING]

:-D Yuppers.........thats what I get fer being on an island playing with my labs and longbow fer 6 weeks.  Heheheheheheheheh.......bet I had more fun that you guys(and gals) (gotta be politicly correct).  No one will ever win that debate anyway.....thought patterns are way to differant between the traditionalist and those that never learned any better................Im otta here,...........way to much laundry to get done and gotta put all my junk back in its place........stay safe..king.. :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D