Author Topic: Quality of the steel on the lower priced 1911's? (Read 1323 times)

His lordship. · « **on:** December 21, 2009, 06:06:59 AM »

I have a Rock Island Arsenal 1911 that I have been happy with, other people have also emphasised the reliability of these as well. I had read that the old Thompson brand of 1911's were a problem, and that some of the Springfield basic GI 1911's had some brittle steel on the frames, which Springfield was nice enough to fix it it happened. Taurus makes a popular 1911 upgrade model too. But how are these lower end guns for the quality of the steel for long term shooting?

Thanks.

williamlayton · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2009, 01:21:46 PM »

STI builds some good guns and they have alower end use 1911 with a cast frame. Though I suspect the gun to have good quality assembly and parts--the frame in my mind is a question mark.
Caspian puts out some good quality cast frames and I would tend to use them over some cast overseas.
Investment cast is a close tollerance operation and if not done correctly each and every time can leave voids in the process.
Blessings

Savage · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:19:59 PM »

Having recently worked on a RI Tactical, I would be more concerned with wear and battering than cracking with this model. I found the breech face to be extremely soft. Might not be a problem with average use. Do a search of the many RI threads of recent months for details.
Savage

bearmgc · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2009, 05:37:00 PM »

I would wonder about the use of lower end 1911's, the number of rounds put through in say a year, whether a person is a casual shooter or a weekly range shooter. I hope that someone intending to use their 1911 on a weekly basis would buy one of better manufacture, considering the wearing of parts and the quality of metal in the frame. It might not matter as much for a casual shooter. I am not a fan of lower end 1911's. I had also read about the problems of the Thompson 1911's, the frame. I've had bad experiences with Taurus wheelguns in the past, and myself, will not risk another, despite any good reviews that may be printed about their 1911 offering. But that's just me. My perception of the 1911 platform includes beauty, function, reliability, durability. I've bought them based on the manufacturer's proven quality.

williamlayton · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2009, 09:04:50 PM »

The only lower end weapon I would not question is the Norinco.
Since I found this accidental Pregnacy and have done a great deal of research on the web--you know, anything on the web is true

--i have found that the steel in it is exceptional.
Now the parts are a question and I am having a Smith, who is familiar with Norinco's-and in favor of them, do some work on it.
Sights, springs and other parts that I like on a good weapon--but the dude went thru a good trial run without a hitch and without anything done too it.
Blessings

Savage · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2009, 02:05:01 AM »

As a rule, I stay away from "Bottom of the Line" stuff no matter what it is. There is a reason for the low price point, and it's not always low quality. It's a common marketing strategy to bring a product into the market at a "Break Even" price point to establish the product or gain market share. If the price stays down for an extended period, it's got to be low manufacturing costs. Either cheap labor, or inferior materials, sometimes both. If the pistol is of good metallurgical integrity, it can be made into a solid performer by the replacement and fitting of internals. The Norinco is an example of that. I'm not a fan of "Work in Progress" pistols. I expect mine to perform right out of the box, whether I paid $500 or three times more. Some appreciate buying an average pistol and making it into an exceptional one. Guess I'm more into "Shoot" than "Show". I suspect the RI line will be all the average first time 1911 buyers will need. Average users of these pistols likely will never shoot them enough to be concerned with longevity. They'll likely be happy with the RI, and for <$400, why not?
Savage

williamlayton · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2009, 03:23:47 AM »

Working weapons are a study in the mind of anal men.
Being anal in respect to wanting something too perform is my cross---and I love it, doing it, seeing it done, knowing it is done and enjoying the whole process, including the shooting.
NOW, I am having a showy little piece done and I AM going to show it off with a big grin, which includes at the range and carrying (well, I gotta be careful about when carrying

.)
Just my anal two cents.

Savage · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2009, 03:57:29 AM »

Bill,
I like "Showy" pistols too! I just spend too much on shooters to afford them. I'm looking forward to seeing your latest!
Savage
Edit: I don't skimp on performance, but might cut a few corners on bling!

His lordship. · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:53:31 AM »

The two reasons that I asked this, was that I have never heard of anything being made out of the Phillippines, other than tourist trinkets. I have heard the South American guns are using soft steel, having owned 4 Taurus guns, I can testify to that. Anything out of the Third or Second World makes me nervous. My RIA gun has some of the finish worn off from bouncing around in the box when new, while very small in the bare spots, the bare steel will not hold a cold blue touch up, won't even hold black paint either, I have applied both finishes, and after a few wipes with oil/cleaner, the finish comes off where I touched them up, very strange.

I bought mine as a replica of the old GI pattern 1911, and it has performed well in that area. I don't like the rear sites being off, they are hard to see due to the small dovetail, I have to aim low and to the right to center my bullet pattern at 50 feet, but my Colt black powder cap and ball revolvers aim that way too, must be a US Army thing from the past. $:-\$ I prefer to shoot my modern 9 MM pistols over my RIA so I might trade it off after the ammo is used up. I appreciate the info you guys have given as it seems that the 1911 guns are forgiving if left in the GI state, and do go "bang" on a reliable basis.

team101 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:39:08 PM »

I second the quality of the Norinco 1911. If you can find one in decent shape, buy it. Cost shouldn't exceed $500 in top shape.

BGRooster1 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2009, 06:33:29 PM »

Try the M1911 pistol organization website and forum.You will find a lot of happy Metro Arms,Rock Island Armory and a few other over seas brand fans.You will find also many expensive pistols being cussed.It's a pretty good forum for the 1911 fan and shooter.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 23, 2009, 06:31:35 PM »

i have 2 rock island .45's straight 1911a1 gi. i have fired right at 1500 rds through both and have no problems with hardball or any round that comes close lead or jacketed. I plan to go to the NRA range tommorrow, with two of my sons, and shoot about 400 rds through each. i personaly could not be happier with these weapons.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #12 on:** December 24, 2009, 02:37:43 AM »

There is a gun out there I haven't seen mentioned. The Star brand from Spain. I have owned many over the years and they have been exceptional. I had a Star model p 45 ACP that I paid $300 for that would consistently out shoot my friends $1000 Colt custom match race gun.(Used to really tick him off). The first handgun to go over a documented million rounds was a Star BM on a shooting range.

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** December 24, 2009, 02:48:58 AM »

I had a Star back just after the dark ages and clubs.
It was a good gun. Made in Spain. The problem with Star and a couple of others is getting what you want--an XXX model is not always the same as another XXX model.
I am not sure about what steel that they use. Spanish have a reputation for poor quality.
Blessings

rawhidekid · « **Reply #14 on:** December 24, 2009, 03:31:56 AM »

I'll take poor quality that will last a million rounds anytime. That model P .45 is at the top of the list of guns I have had and lost,(had to go back overseas and had no one to leave it with.)

The main problem I have had is finding the exact model you want. I haven't seen another model P like that since.

My wife always loved the Star PD .45, they quite selling the buffer for it. No buffer, no worky.

drdougrx · « **Reply #15 on:** December 24, 2009, 03:37:02 AM »

Hey Rawhide!!

I loved the PD and carried one often...but they were like Mini-14's for me...buy...shoot...sell...buy...shoot...sell. I've had 3 of them and actually still do have a new buffer or two in my parts bin!!

williamlayton · « **Reply #16 on:** December 24, 2009, 04:44:09 AM »

Well, that is my opinion. You can have yours---that's OK.
Blessings

rawhidekid · « **Reply #17 on:** December 24, 2009, 11:17:33 AM »

drdougrx: don't let my wife find out about those buffers or she will make me go out and buy another PD.

She has always said that was her all time faverite.

William, no problem, we can agree to disagree.

His lordship. · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2009, 06:49:36 AM »

There was an article a few months ago, I think it was in the American Rifleman magazine, about some of the pistols that were used by the French in WW 1 and they mentioned that large numbers of Spanish pistols (similar to the Colt semi-autos) were purchased as they needed lots of guns for the war. They worked well but because of soft steel they had to be made heavier, with beefier parts to work, the soldiers felt the extra weight in their holsters and did not like that, but they functioned.

I have heard over the years that other Spanish guns also use soft steel, don't plan to buy another one unless it is for limited use and cheap.

I shot off the last of my .45 ACP and checked my RIA 1911 carefully. The ejector is noticeably soft and is peeling back, but it would take awhile before it would need to replaced, on the forums there was mention of this being common with these RIAs. There is surface irregularities on the feeding ramp, it could be the steel peeling back, or build up of the bullet jacketing. I checked my other 9 MM pistols (Rugers/Springer XD, etc) and the feeding ramps are clean and polished, the ejectors are good, not at all like the RIA gun, they have around the same amount of ammo put through them (600 rounds).

So far I will keep this gun as a possible trade down the road, it is very reliable though, and the rest of the frame and slide look ok. The barrel is weird, when I got it it needed to be cleaned and I noticed what appeared to be bad machining or corrosion of the grooves of the barrel as this area is rough, the lands are fine. It came with a fired shell casing, I researched it and it is military issue, made in the Philippines. It may have been corrosive, that might explain the roughness of the bore as it was not cleaned. Still, that is not a good way to make a barrel on a new gun.

I think that the 1911 is a forgiving design, ol' John Browning come up with it, and it will be interesting to see if there are any complaints once these get into the 5,000 plus ammo consumption realm.

Questor · « **Reply #19 on:** December 30, 2009, 05:31:03 AM »

It's not just the metal by brand name, it's the amount of use and vintage. 1911's have come apart after much use because of fatigue. That's supposedly what happened with a lot of the US military's old 1911s.

My theory on guns is that, up to a certain price point, you get what you pay for. Cheap guns are generally not built to last. Above that price point you're just paying for cosmetics or custom work or prestige. With 1911s anything under about $600 new is suspicious as being a likely cheapie that will cost more to upgrade than it's worth. Above $2000 for a non-competition gun is cosmetics and custom work.

I had a South American .22 rifle once that seemed to be made out of a kind of cheese instead of metal. The metal was so soft I could visibly see it wear every time I went shooting and I wore it out in a couple of years.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2009, 06:44:43 AM »

OK, if the Spanish steel is so weak, how do you guys explain a Star 9mm being the first DOCUMENTED semi auto to last 1 million rounds? I really would like to here this.

But I do conceid they are heavier.

williamlayton · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2009, 07:40:03 AM »

Don't take this as doubting your word but I would like a link to the documentation.
There are a lot of different grades of steel.
There are a lot of different methods of producing steel.
Hammer forged is generally considered the best--it grains the steel. It is also expensive.
The norinco has harder steel than Americans produce--not, can produce, but is a harder standard. I may be harder but if the production process is not good it can have voids and cross grains. You find this commonly in Golf Irons of lower quality.
Then there is the machining process and this can produce a less quality frame or slide.
Steel is not all equal. See the process for building finer knife blades and expensive Japanese hand forged blades.
But they are all steel.
Steel for railroad tracks have a different quality of steel tha knives, for instance.
Blessings

rawhidekid · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:59:54 AM »

When I read the article, it was back in 2007. I tried to find it this morning on the internet because I new someone would ask to see it, of course I couldn't. The dang bing couldn't evan come up with the right catagory.

But that is OK, I could swear it was at a range there in Texas but since I can not find it, I can't prove it.

You guys would rather spend $1200 or more on you handguns anyway. Reminds me of a guy used to come to the range I worked at. He had a Glock .45 ACP, two Front site custom 1911's and the then new Sig 1911. He shot the Glock better than any of the others. I asked why he spent all that money for the others when he shot the $600 Glock so much better. He said "it wouldn't be any fun just shooting the Glock". I guess if you have to ask you can't aford it.

williamlayton · « **Reply #23 on:** December 31, 2009, 09:24:48 AM »

Rawhide
I'm not doubting your word, I would just like to read it, the article, that is.
It is an interesting discussion, this steel thing. A few years ago over on Pistolsmith, this arguement raged fer months and came dang near to a revolution.
Blessings

rawhidekid · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2009, 11:22:45 AM »

If you think that led to a revolution, yesterday on the radio they were asking what you would do if Obama wanted to get rid of all guns. If you remember history the British were comming to take away the setlers guns when "the shot heard round the world" happened. And they do say history has a way of repeating itself.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #25 on:** December 31, 2009, 11:27:54 AM »

I evan tried using 100,000 rounds in case I had remembered wrong and could not get bing to look under shooting ranges and ammo count on a rental handgun.

I know it was a Star 9mm, but I can't prove it and thats that.

Happy New Year anyway.

rpxr400 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 31, 2009, 02:31:48 PM »

I have a High Standard Crusader Compact (officer's model) which is made by Armscor - the same mfr of RIA.
It's a great gun. I only have about 500 rounds through it, but I've never had a failure of any kind and it doesn't show any premature wear anywhere. It's my carry gun.

1911crazy · « **Reply #27 on:** January 01, 2010, 12:34:21 PM »

The new Auto-Ordnance Army WW2 copy 1911a1 is manufactured from 4140 steel and thats good stuff. My new AO was $389.

The chinese norinco 1911a1 is a quality steel (our old scrap rail road tracks) plus its forged. I found one in excellent condition for $300.

I think that these two 1911's in this under $500 price range is hard to beat quality wise. It also proves you can get a reliable and dependable 1911 at a much lower price too. I've seen the higher priced pistols that weren't this good too.