dip or pour plus fluxes, fluxing etc.

[gypsyman]

Veral, went back 6 pages, and didn't see anybody ask this question. So, if somebody already asked it, and I'm repeating, sorry about that. Been using a bottom pour RCBS pot for probably close to 20 years. And, I can remember getting into a ''discussion'', after a silhouette match many many years ago, about wether you get a better bullet by dipping, or using a bottom pour pot? I figure that if you flux and stir the pot every 10 minute's or so, you should get just as good a bullet. A friend of mine, who casted alot longer than me, insisted that you get a better bullet,consistant, by dipping. His theory was, your always stirring the pot and keeping all the metals mixed better. What say you? gypsyman

[shakey]

Gypsyman ...hope you don't mind me expanding on your question but I think it may be to all our benefit. 

If dipping is preferred, what kind of dipper ...bottom pour or simple ladle?  And, if a bottom pour dipper is used, do you simply pour from the spout or press it to the mold and pour with "pressure"? Is there a specific brand of dipper you would recommend?

I apologize for "piling on" but I too am thinking I need to change from bottom pour to dipper and need the details spelled out as much as possible.

[gypsyman]

shakey, no problem. Glad to hear from somebody else with an inquiring mind. I get into a rythem when I use my bottom pour, as I usually get 2 molds going at the same time. And, some of the bullets are mainly plinking. But, there are a couple I cast, that I would like to see if I might get a more consistant bullet by possible using a ladle, and you bought up a good point. My buddy who believes you get a better bullet by as you say, pour with pressure. He tips the mold just a little, then tips the ladle and mold to pressure the lead into the mold. I'm just sure if it makes much difference, and I'm hoping Veral can shed some light on this. gypsyman

[boommer]

I always try to ladle pour my larger bullets 400gr+because they come out a little more consistant in weight less culling. This comes from being able to keep pouring after mould fills and letting run back into the pot, sort of like letting the lead pressurizing the mould . I cull my bprc bullets at +/- 1 gr. I start with 50# in the cast iron pot on propane turkey fryer base I will flux at the start and stir every now and then,but when the gets down to 15-20# I quit casting or load it up again. RCBS dipper is what I use holds plenty of lead to keep the pressure on even on 550gr slugs. I tried fluxing more often and found taking the time to flux my mould temps would flex to much, only cast at 750 degrees or little less and at that temp the your antimony dos'nt want seperate as much. The one thing that helps me keep my bprc bullets consistant in weight is pre smelt my lead into 1/30 mix as close as I can because not using certified pure lead just lead pipe and stick ons and others, but each 70#pot is one lot so when I cast, I'll take some out of each lot so it blends.
I tried dipping out of the electric pot didn't like the results at all. SURE it can be done,but with big slugs you run out of lead to fast and you can't be messy and stay in rythem.               

[docmagnum357]

sometimes I get better bullets with a ladel too....  You guys could be on to somethig.  wonder what Veral thinks

[Veral]

  I've dipper cast a lot of bullets and liked it just fine till I got a bottom pour pot.  I have no interest in dipper casting since, though I would if bullet weight went over  600 700  grains.  The big ones need to have the lead dumped in fast, which is where the dipper shines.
  The serious negative side of dipper casting is that all the stiring mixes in dross if the pot isn't fluxed very frequently.  Contrary to a commonly held notion, lead alloys do NOT seperate, so dippering doesn't keep them mixed unless one is using bearing babbit, which has what could be called floating particles of harder metal.  These particles will either float or sink if not stirred regularly.

  The down side of bottom pour, and I believe the only two negative points are:  1.The orfices tend to plug up gradually with crud, and 2. the buildup of crud inside the spout tends to make them drip.  I cure these two problems by fastening drills into pieces of cold rolled rod, long enough so I'm working well above the melt, to keep from burning my fingers.  One drill at the larger diameter where the meter rod fits, and a second which will clean the spout orfice to original diameter.  To use these, remove the meter rod, twist the large drill into its hole, then the smaller, using fingers only and going gently enough that steel isn't removed.  Keep an ingot mold under the spout while cleaning the spout to catch the running lead.  Drop the meter rod back in and you are back to new tolerances.  If you cast real large bullets, don't hesitate to open up the smaller orfice a bit.  Second, I braze a piece of steel rod to the meter rod, up near the top, at right angle  to the rod.  When the pot starts dripping, just push down lightly and swing it from side to side to grind out any debris.
  To remove junk from just the orfice, use a 1/16 diameter piece of stainless steel welding rod, bent at a right angle for about 3/4 inch.  Dip it in lard or bees wax to flux it, push it up into the spout, twist and wiggle it around while raising and lowering the meter rod handle.  The flux will loosen the crud quite well and let it squirt out with the first shot of lead out the spout after the wire is removed. 
  In case you aren't aware of the reason for the bent wire, it is so your hands aren't under the dripped and squirting lead.
  I only flux the bottom pour pot occasionally.  The longest time I've gone between fluxing is probably 4 months, and this with the pot running 8 to 12 hours a day about half of those 4 months, as I use the pot for checking mold diameter while cutting molds.  I can pour perfectly clean bullets with a good inch of crud floating on top, because it isn't stirred up ever, even if more ingots are added.

  Wheel weight metal doesn't change so far as castability or hardening qualities when heated for those hundreds of hours.  Lino or other rich alloy would lose enough tin to change it some.  So, if I want to cast bullets I use the same pot as for checking molds.

  Hopefully this will blow a bit of mith away.

[Sweetwater]

Nice stuff, Veral! As always, and appreciated. My bottom-pour LEE has "the drip" and I've always been afraid to tamper with the openings. It's old, like some of us, but still works with a little maintenance. Now, I think I can fix the drip and not worry too much about messing things up. Nothing quite as messy as a run-away drip. Hot lead goes everywhere.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Veral]

  If your pot has enough clearance, keep an ingot mold or other shallow receptacle under the spout to catch drips.  Also, when a bottom pour pot sits idle for more than a couple minutes, the lead hanging on or in the spout will oxidize rapidly.  The oxidization will show on your bullets if it is shot into the mold.  Give the handle a little jiggle just before putting the mold under the spout, so a squirt of lead sends this oxidized droplet into the waiting recepticle and your bullets will be more shiney.
  I think this bit of oxidized lead is one reason many cling to dipper pouring, as there isin't enough time between the dip and pour to oxidize lead noticably with a dipper.
  I'm glad you mentioned Lee pots.  They have a crooked pour spout so the drill trick won't work from the top only on them.  I do it with an RCBS pot and the Lyman and Magma pots I've seen can be cleaned from the top.  While on the subject of Lee pots.  I used them for several years in my mold business, I believe 9 years in fact, and had to replace them every three months.  On the recommendation of a friend, I finally sprung for an RCBS pot, 20 years ago, and it's still working great, with no maintenence except to clean the spout occasionally.  I bought a second for a backup after a few months, as I had always kept a backup when using Lee pots, to keep from shutting the mold making down.  The backup is always full of pure lead for push through slugs etc.  But the original pot, is always full of wheel weight, and just keeps on going and going and going.  It shows no sign whatsoever of failure.  (The lee pots always oxidized away and started leaking out the side somewhere if the heating element didn't fail first, which it normally did.
  Don't take these statements as total damnation of lee pots, because my three months of use equaled about 800 hours running wide open, often being forgotten when I went in to bed.  Figgure it out, and you might find that would be a lifetime for your casting.   

  RCBS have probably monel pots, or maybe stainless steel. At any rate they don't rust.  If the pot you use   is iron or steel, and shows rust when it collects moisture, be sure to drop in a tablespoon of lard after shutting it down, if it will be stored for some time.  Wait till the lead is solidified, and preferably while cooled enough that the lard doesn't smoke.  It will penetrate around the lead, seal off any moisture, totally eliminate any rust, and give the alloy a perfect fluxing whenever you fire up the pot again.  Use pure lard, not frying grease which has salt in it.

[Sweetwater]

Thanks for the lard tip. My LEE pot is from the early 70's and saw a lot of use intil the late 90's. After that , it's only been occasional. Been lucky with it. IT's not perfect, but it is better than some stuff I've used.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[gypsyman]

Thanks Veral. Guess I'll stick with my RCBS Pro-Melt. Never thought about lard being a good rust inhibitor, but then I have several cast iron pots that have been seasoned over the years, and there in good shape. gypsyman

[Veral]

  I named lard because it is quite cheap and available in all grocery stores.  Any animal fat works fine except for some of the musky furbearers which stink to high heaven. (Some would use another term, which might be more accurate.)  If beef, mutton, any wild game,  or bird fat is available, they all work as well as lard.  I've been using bear lard for the last 10 years and like it very much, both for flux and as a cutting oil for everything from hard steel to aluminum and lead.  It's the only cutting compound I use when makeing molds.
  Best way to render the fat down to grease is chop it fine or grind and lay it on a broiler pan.  Heat in the oven at 250 so it doesn't burn and the fat will run down through the broiler cracks.  Beeswax is also excellent as a flux if available affordably, and pine pitch collected off wounded trees has no peer.  It is in fact rosin, with more turpintine left than if you bought rosin.  Melted together with any of the above animal fats puts a bit more punch into the fat or beeswax so far as fluxing power, and makes it stay a bit longer.  If you get a mother load of fat, the best way to store it is in canning jars.  Just pour it in while still hot, screw the lids/caps on and heat in the oven at 250 for a half hour or so.  It will seal and when sealed keep in edible condition for about a year, should you want to use it for cooking.  When it turns rancid, as my bear fat has, heat it till it begins to smoke and the rancid smell will leave.

  In a pinch, motor oil works very well both for a flux and for preverving the pot, but it stinks something awful and is probably deadly to breath much of the smoke.  If you use it be sure you have strong ventilation or set the pot outdoors down wind while it's heating up.

  While on the subject of fat, perhaps you'd like to know of a popular gun oil when I was a kid.  Clarified bird fat.  It can be from any bird, except waterfoul, though it seems that the gun writer whose writing I read, claimed phesant was tops.  Render it out at low temp as above, then keep the rendered oil in a warm place till the solids settle out, leaving a clear oil floating on top.  Normally about half the fat will be 'clarified' oil.  Settling seems to take place fastest at around 100 deg F or so.  I used chicken fat for years before I started using the bear lard which I speak of above.    It makes an excellent gun oil, if the parts are oiled and wiped clean with a dry rag.  Maybe not as good as some of the modering offerings, but still good as it was 55 years ago when I read about how to make it.