Fail Safe componet bullet question

[Dand]

I bought a bunch of 30 cal 180 gr Failsafes that say not for over 2700 fps on the box.  I assumed that meant velocity at the target so bought them for my 300 win mag.

I've had trouble finding  a good load with them.  My favorite load with nearly any other 180 gr 30 cal bullet is 70-73 gr IMR 4831 - I can count on .75 - 1.25 groups at 100 yards.  

For the Fail Safe I've experimented with 69 -72 gr IMR 4831 and 70-72 gr of AA 3100.  My groups are patterns often stringing horizontally as much as 3.5 inches and nearly as much vertically.  

Do I have a bum batch of bullets or am I pushing them too hard?  

In between these poor groups I shot some of my standard practice loads using 180 Speer spires - today they shot .75 to a hair over an inch.

Comments or suggestions?

[Iowegan]

Failsafes will fragment in the barrel if the velocity exceeds maximum. The spec quoted (2700 fps) is muzzle velocity not down range velocity.  Reduce your velocity to 2600 fps and your groups will tighten.  Failsafes are intended more for 308 Win or 30-'06 normal velocity loads. They will work in a 300 Win Mag but you forfit 300-400 fps and that means a lot less energy on the target. Counter-productive, I'd go back to the Speer bullets.

[Dand]

guess I'll get out the '06 and see how they work in that gun.  I think these may be older Failsafes, got them for $10.00/ box of 25.  Just read so much good press on them I figured they were worth a try.  Your comment sure would explain the poor performance down range.  I was beginning to think I needed a new barrel and or stock.

For serious work I use partitions in 180, 200 and 220 but the 180 Speers have done well on caribou.

thanks again

[Donna]

Hello all,

Iowegan...Please tell me why you think a bullet can possibly fragment while it is still in the barrel? :evil:  A bullet can fly apart once it exits the muzzle due to centrifugal forces but that was after it left the confines of the barrel. I have never herd of a bullet fragmenting while it is being supported by and in the barrel. I have made some .224 caliber bullets from .22 LR cases before and they shoot ok as long as you keep the velocity below 3200 pfs (muzzle velocity) if not the have a tendency to create a gray clouds of lead dust soon after they exit the muzzle, it could be after a foot or thirty feet, but I have never shot out a cloud of lead dust because it fragmented while it is still in the barrel.

This sounds like another one of those fairy tails I keep on hearing about, like you should never clean the barrel of a .22 rimfire it will lose accuracy. Yep, I actually herd someone say that, just like the Army saying that the AR-16 never gets dirty and that was why they did not give cleaning kits out to the troops for the first year. Sometimes those fairy tails can get people killed. :roll:

Donna :wink:

[Dand]

Donna, I wondered about that too but I didn't want to quibble.  From the poor results I get it appears these bullets don't do well at 300 mag velocities.  I reviewed my targets last night after making that post and it would appear that accuracy of these bullets deteriorates as velocity increases.  Maybe I was going the wrong way with load development. My lightest loads of 69 gr of IMR 4831 had ok accuracy - 2 inches or so.  The hottest ones at 72.4 gr were real poor.  I kept thinking hotter might get better like for some conventional bullets.

So regardless of Iowegians details, it appears to me he's right that my particular batch of Failsafes don't work in my 300 win.  I'm wondering if the jackets are damaged at take off and don't fly true once out of the barrel.

What I'd like to know now is if the newer batches will work.  It seems like a great design and with one bullet I'd hoped to be right for caribou, moose or an onery bear.  Maybe I should contact Seyfried, he sure like FS.


Thanks for keeping us on our toes.

[Donna]

Hello Dand,

If the box on the FS bullets said not to exceed 2700 fps there is a reason for that. They might be made with a thinner jacket than normal so that they open up properly at lower velocities. I would not think that they are damaged just designed for a different purpose in mind than what you are trying to use them for. If what you want is a bullet for the larger game as you stated, you might give Nosler Partition bullets a try or the good old stand by’s of Speer or Hornady a look see. I did not mention Sierra bullets because they #$%^&* me off, so I’m boycotting them. The design of a bullet is purpose, purpose, and purpose. Not all bullets will perform for all purposes. A nice target bullet does not make for a good hunting bullet and visa versa.

Donna :wink:

[KN]

Donna, Why has Sierra ticked you off?   KN

[Iowegan]

Donna, It's not a common thing but thin jacketed bullets being pushed beyond their limits will come apart in the bore. Several years ago when Hornady introduced their .224 SXSP bullets, they had a caution of "not to exceed 3600 fps" on the box. Well, I had a hot 22-250 load that went beyond 3800 fps. Funny, when I shot them, I thought I was missing the target at 100 yds. Later when I cleaned the gun, I removed small ironed out chunks of jacket material. I'm surprised the bore wasn't damaged.  I also saw a 7mm Mag do a similar thing with a Speer 115 gr JHP. It made what looked like a grease smear on the target. The worst case I saw was when I loaded some 158 grain .357 JHP pistol bullets in a 358 Winchester rifle.  They were pushing about 3000 fps and left the barrel in a cloud. The jacket lodged part way up the barrel and left a bright ring. So much for that barrel. Things can and do come apart in the barrel if you do dumb things like I did.

I've been reloading for over 40 years. In my youth, I thought reloading was to see how hot you could load.  I've mellowed a great deal, and now in my senior years, try to caution the younger folks to stay within design parameters. Experience is a good teacher if you live to tell about it.

The thin jacket, brittle core failsafes will indeed fragment or shead the jacket down range if the velocity exceeds the limits.

[Dana3of5]

"I also saw a 7mm Mag do a similar thing with a Speer 115 gr JHP."

WHO would be fool enough to put a 115 g bullet in a 7 mm Mag???

Gotta call BS on that one BIG TIME.  If someone did that type of reloading, I would not doubt that they were not loading for performance, but to brag about a "fast, hot load".

I do not understand WHY, with all that power, some mag owners load lighter bullets, when the purpose of the mag was to launch a larger bullet faster??

[Donna]

Hello KN,

A very good friend of mine that I know like a sister, bought two boxes, each box is 500 count bulk pack, of .224 caliber, 69 grain HPBT Match bullets, we paid over $50.00 for each box. My friend was trying to work up a load for her custom AR-15 single shot bolt action in .223 AI (Ackley Improved) 40-degree shoulder, when she discovered that she could not get a consistently seated bullet that was the same over all length from the bottom of the case to the start of the ogive. This is measured with a digital caliper and a bullet comparator in this way the tip does not even come into play. On further examination of the culprit we found, by just looking closely at the bullets, that in a handful there was four distinct bullets with different ogives that had as much as 0.011 inch variation. I contacted Sierra Bullets and talked to one of their “Ballistician’s” and we sent them in. the Ballistician was kind enough to take this problem to the Vice President of Sierra Bullets Mr. Adam Braverman. Mr. Adam Braverman basically said their not going to do anything about it and shipped them back to my friend with a couple of lame excuses. One was that their bullets can be off as much as 5 or 7 thousandth (0.005 to 0.007), but that does not explain the fact that I was measuring them to be up to eleven thousandth (0.011) difference. I’m making my own bullets and told her that we will sale all of our Sierra bullets at the next Gun Show, and we did, and I’ll just make her her bullets myself. My bullets only have an ogive difference of 0.0005 maximum. Far exceeding Sierra’s quality control, which in my opinion is not control at all. Sierra told me that for this particular bullet Sierra has two machines and each machines has two sets of dies, of course there going to be different but that was beyond any reasonable differences.

Now to be fair the boxes were combined into another container and the original boxes except for the label saying what they were was thrown away. Their decision to not act was based on the fact that we no longer had the original boxes that they came in and their attitude that they gave me was that I was lying to them about the situation. I do not make a habit of lying to anyone and I will not take that attitude from him (Mr. Adam Braverman). It is people like me that give him his place in the job market. I may not hurt him or the company monetarily wise but I can sure tell you they will never see any more of my hard earned money. I will not support any company that does not support me. All they needed to do was to give me a token of appreciation for bringing a quality control problem to their attention, but NO, they had to go and tell me they thought I was LYING to them.  :twisted: HOW DARE THEY (they being the company, they being Mr. Adam Braverman, Vice F#$%^K’en President).  :twisted: You don’t have to boycott them but I sure wouldn’t pay their prices for their #$%^& bullets. Speer and Hornady’s bullet are just as good and for a lot less of a price tag too. If Speer and Hornady are not up to your needs, contact Berger Bullets or myself and I’ll see what I can do for you.

Hay, thanks for that question. I guess I needed to air that. Boy I feel better now. :roll:

  Iowegan…you used the word “fragment in the barrel,” that they don’t do, but I do agree with you that bits of the jacket will be left behind in the bore. What is happening is that the bullet is being driven down the barrel to fast for their construction. When the bullet tries to engage the riflings the riflings actually tare the jacket material off. It’s like a car that takes a curve too fast and it skids a little, the faster the car takes the curve the more it skids until it is in a fully uncontrollable skid were there is no traction at all. That is why you’ve seen jacket chunks and copper smear marks down the barrel. Thus the faster the bullet is driven the worse the accuracy becomes. In my early days I tried casting for my .30-06 and got a 2-foot diameter pattern at less than 100 yards. A friend of mine said it was skipping the riflings, what I think he meant to say and what was happening was that the riflings that were made in the bullet was being ripped off. I essentially had a bullet that was bore diameter flying towards the target with something less than 1 in 10 twist rate and somewhat miss balanced. :roll:

Donna :wink:

[Dand]

Yeah Donna, I'm very familiar with Nosler Partitions - they are my standard load.  I use Speers for cheaper practice and find they do pretty well on caribou too.

 It been a long time since I shot Sierras they were great for accuracy. But my friend used Sierras for caribou in his 300 and I was never impressed by the performance compared to the Noslers and grand slams I used.

I tend to agree with your last post regarding jacket material in the bore.  I'll locate some Failsafes designed for 300 mag velocities and try them again - or go to the 200 gr Noslers.  Maybe try some Barnes X again.


I was having a hard time cleaning the bore after these failsafe tests - even with sweets, shooter's choice and butch's bore shine - and JB bore cleaner.  Lots of patches and soaking were required after shooting those Failsafes and a mixture of Speers, Noslers, Corelokts thrown in.  

BTW I'm trying out this new Wipe Out Bore cleaner.  My last clean up was pretty easy.  Two 3 or 4 hour soaks and one overnight soak and the bore was clean - and smooth again - finally.  And no stink -far less patches and elbow grease.   Has any one else tried this stuff?  I put a little review of it on GB's Product Review forum.  I'm still a little nervous about any new bore product until I hear that competitors and a bunch of other shooters are using it.  I sure like the no stink aspect and it sure gets after the copper.  Patches came out deep purple after the first soak the other day.

I'm curious what others think of Wipe Out.