Wrinkled my neck...Help !!

[MrYeats]

I am new to reloading and just loaded 20 rounds of 280 rem with Hornady
139gr Spire point with 53.5 gr H4831 powder. I know it probably takes a few tries to get the die adjusted right for proper bullet depth. Heres what I am concerned with, my first few were seated too deep and wrinkled the neck and part of the shoulder.
   Can these rounds be "fireformed" , should they be discarded, what can I do to save the rounds?
   **FOOTNOTE QUESTION**
   I noticed that on commercial loads, the gas check or "crimped line" on the bullet is aobove the neck, I loaded mine with the top edge of the neck "on the line" sort of crimped into it, is that acceptable? Problems?
  **SECOND FOOTNOTE**
  I am shooting on a Mauser 98 action rebarelled.

[jhm]

MrYeats :  This is one of the times when the kenetic hammer comes into play and we have all had the experience,  take the bad rounds and remoce the bullet with the hammer if you know for sure what powder you used you can also save it, now the primer you will have to kiss good-bt if the MT round will chamber I usually just fire the primer off in the gun making sure im outside and there isnt any powder in the case, re size thru the dies and make sure the oal is correct, sounds like the brass was too long, trim the brass to length, now procede to reload, back the bullet seater die up so when you seat the bullet it just goes into the brass, ck length and turn down seating stem a little at a time until desired length is acheved.    JIM

[The Shrink]

And if you are loading for a bolt action you don't need a crimp as long as the bullet is tight in the neck.  It's probably the crimping operation that caused the problem.

[jhm]

Mryeats :  The shrink has it answered for you on a bolt action, the crimp you are refering to is done at the factory as they have no control of the type of action the cartridge will be fired in, can you be specific as to what you are shooting, most commercial reloading bullets dont even have that grouve you are refering to, dont dispare we will get it straightened out.   JIM

[Questor]

As a new reloader you need to be prepared to throw out a few mistakes.  Just throw out the rejects, correct the problem, and chalk it up to experience.

[jhalcott]

turkey necked your ammo,huh? First I keep these little mistakes in a "SPECIAL" cigar box so I can show new reloaders what NOT to do.
  You may be wrinkling the necks as you SEAT the bullet. If it is only an occaional case ,then those cases are probably to long and need trimming. Another problem might be not enough chamfer in the neck. After you trim ,the inside of the neck needs to be SLIGHTLY chamfered.
 Don't worry NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER TURKEYED THEIR BRASS BEFORE!
Yea, right :wink: ! JH

[Mikey]

Mr. Yeats:  first I would back off on the crimp by a bit.  The Shrink is correct - in a bolt action you do not need to crimp the case - usually just the tension of the neck around the bullet is tight enough.  Also, I would begin loading the bullets 'out' until they just touch the rifling, then you will know what the proper length of the cartridge for that particular rifle will be.  

Second - I would look to see if you are squashing down the necks while seating the bullet.  This happens to me on occassion while loading 303 Brits, so I have to make sure I have the case mouth slightly belled enough so I can sit the bullet straight up in the case and have it in the case far enough to hold it upright as I introduce it to the seating die.

Third - you can pull the bullets, reuse the powder, and resize the case without the decapping pin in place and it will still go 'bang'.  At least mine do.  I don't think you can chamber one of your wrinkled cases if they have a wrinkled shoulder - ya'll gotta resize those.

Jhalcott has a good suggestion about the cigar box but to be honest, I emptied mine when I figured out that I could resize the squashed cases and use them again.  HTH.  Mikey.

[MrYeats]

Sounds like I fell into the same barrel of worms that everybody else has, Point, I feel much better now and as i' tend to take the easy way out of dark situations, I think I/ll save the bad ones as a reminder of days past. New brass is relatively easy to find even in this off caliber. My new barreled action should be here in a few days and Im looking forward to putting the wood in the firebox. The 280 promises to be a good round, and I dont really understand why it didnt take off on the market as the 270 did.  
Seems to me the 280 will be much easier on the shoulder. I also shoot a model 740 30.06 and a 1900 swedish mauser 6.5.. which is a real peach.
  Listen fellas, Im glad that I found this forum and feel as though Ive found some new friends.
  Thanks for all the advice and am looking forward to finding some new topics to discuss.... :wink:

[Loader 3009]

Mryeats,  many times, loaders will have their die set so that it crimps the case before the bullet is fully seated.  This will wrinkle a neck every time.  The opportunities to screw up in reloading are practically unlimited. :grin:

The best way to avoid the gremlins is to develope a system and never vary from it.

[The Shrink]

MrYeats

The only time I've done this is with 44-40, where the brass is so thin that breathing on it wrinkles it.  By the way, if you believe that, I have this bridge ... .  

Sounds like you are shooting all bolt actions, so I'd suggest that you set your seating dies to seat the bullet without crimping at all.  When you get your gun, take an empty case and slightly seat a bullet in the case.  Load this and slowly close the bolt, letting the rifling seat the bullet.  You will probably want your OAL a few thousands less than the OAL of this cartridge to prevent pressure problems, and you can experiment with seating depth once you have found your accurate load.  It can affect accuracy, but your most accurate load will be your first variable to find.  

Are you chamfering your cases?  This is cutting the mouth of the case so that it is almost sharp, allowing the bullet to slip in.  Otherwise, the bullet will catch on the mouth of the case as you try to seat it, as it is the same size as the case mouth.  My experience is that if this is the problem you will successfully load some rounds and some you will crush the neck down onto the shoulder, not just get wrinkles.  

If you seat the bullets this way, with no crimp, with a chamfer, and are still getting the wrinkles, your sizing die is way too tight or the expanding plug is way to small.  This is reason to return the die, by the way.  No way I would keep it and try to fix it, let the manufacturer do that.

[MrYeats]

My first few rounds were horrible. The neck crumpled down onto the shoulder and I stood there like a dumbfounded monkey.
  Then i backed off on the black screw on top of the die and seated the next bullet a little at a time till I got the neck and the groove that goes around the bullet(gas check?) right to the top of the neck and set the die right there. All the rest came out pretty uniform but then I got to looking at my factory loads.(Remington 165gr SP) and noticed that the gas check is slightly clear of the neck. I hope that this is OK. I'm probably getting ahead of myself by not waiting till my rifle gets here, but I'll take you guys advice and do the next lot by starting off getting a  proper OAL on this particular chamber and go from there...Thanks again.

[Dand]

MrYeats, the posts above have hit the source of your problems but  I encourage you to get a caliper to measure overall cartridge length (OAL) and look at the recommended OAL in your manuals. You might want to read the introduction parts again too.

Second: Don't depend on the cannelure (knurled crimp ring on bullet) to establish seating depth. Different brands and designs of bullets are different lengths, and cannelures are often positioned for the most common cartridge using that bullet - which ISN'T a 280 - more  likely the 7mm Rem Mag.  Seating depths for different cartridges and for each individual rifle are different. Try that "little-bit-at-a-time" system recommended above until the bullet is just off the lands a few 1/100ths of an inch. If the case edge lines up with the cannelure great - but if not its no biggie especially in a bolt gun.  More likely magazine length and ability to feed properly, or chamber throating will be the critical factor in seating your bullets.  

Dont' seat the bullets so far out they stick in the throat and come out of the case if the unfired round is removed.  I friend loaded some ammo for me that stuck- long before I was a loader. Ruined my hunt as I didn't have a rod to tap out the bullet.  Luckily I noticed this mess of powder all over in the action and investigated before chambering another round and making a real mess of things; could have blown up the gun in a worst case.  As it was I was an impatient 15 yr old, tried poking the cast bullet out with a stick and got that jammed in the bore.  Went home and tried to push it all out with a cleaning rod - jammed that up brakng the rod. Finally took it to a smith who smiled and fixed it for $20.

BTW - gas checks refer to a small metal cup that is attached to the base of cast bullets to reduce damaging the bullet base from hot powder gasses.  

Good luck and welcome to reloading - been at it since 1973.

[The Shrink]

MrYeats

Go to your reloading store or your catalogs and get a chamfering tool.  RCBS makes a big, solid handful that will do inside and outside, and you will need this ability when you get to trimming cases.  Yeas, you will do that eventually, too.  

Every time you fire a cartridge the case stretches and relaxes, but doesn't relax quite as much as it stretches.  The hotter the load, the more the stretch.  These add up until the case is too long.  Then you have to trim.  RCBS, Lyman, Forester, etc. all make basically the same tool with minor differences.  As a novice I'd suggest you stay away from the powerd ones, it's too easy to eat up a case by accident with one of those.  

When you trim a case you get a rim of brass rolled around the mouth of the cartridge.  The chamfering tool takes this off and creates a slope inside the neck to ease the bullet into the case.  It will all come clear when you get one.  

Then, before you attempt to load any other ammo, get a couple of manuals and read, read, read.  Read the instructions for setting up your dies and fully understand the dynamics of whet's happening inside those things before you put another case into one.  When you can visualize what happens to the case as you cycle it through the dies you are ready to go back and try again.  

Read the manuals and get some understanding of the dynamics of the powders and bullet combinations you are using.  I don't mean a thorough study of internal ballistics, but you ought to understand the relative speeds of burning of various powders and what that means to your cartridge.  I have been reading this stuff for over 20 years and am now reading Handloading magazine and trying to get a grup on internal ballistics with no head for math.  It's especially challenging when I add bleck powder to the mix!

You are starting in on an addictive sport, with almost infinate variations.  Welcome to this addiction!

[HoCoMDHunter]

Mr Yeates,
  I believe that the groove that you are referring to is the cannelure.   That aside, instead of backing off the screw within the die, back off the entire die.  I think your die is crimping before the bullet is fully seated.   I only know this because I have made the same mistake.  Now I need help here myself...  I didn't know that you don't need to crimp for bolt actions!!  What if you have bullets in the magazine?  What about consistent pressure?  Have I been wasting my time?  Am I hurting accuracy by crimping, or perhaps just shortening case life?

[MrYeats]

I prefer to crimp only because i feel more secure with a good tight round. I don't know how it could affect accuracy, but then I'm a beginner at this.

[Dand]

Back when Lee first introduced their Factory Crimp die, the crimp vs no crimp debate really raged.  Even some bullet manufacturers got into it big time with paid ads in gun magazines.  If you have good brass, good size die and proper neck expander ball, crimping should be unnecessary for a 280 Rem.  Crimping, especially excessive crimping that distorts or damages the bullet jacket can affect accuracy.  Crimping can add wear and tear on case necks, shortening case life.  But if you feel better with a crimp - go for it.  Just be sure you are crimping in a crimp groove or cannelure and don't overdo it.  Some folks swear by the Lee die above.  I like them for my 30-30 and 348.  I crimp my 357, 38, and 41 mag loads but that's necessary for proper function.   I don't crimp my .223, 30-06, or 300 win mag.  Never had a problem.

[MrYeats]

After toying around with a few rounds, I did find that adjusting the seating die to just barely crimp the bullet into the cannelure was good. I was having a problem earlier with the crimping action taking place way too early and affecting the round in a very adverse way. With the adjustment I have now seems to be good and I am getting the round to be uniform.