Author Topic: really basic, beginner's case measuring question  (Read 540 times)

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Offline red alder ranch

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really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« on: January 13, 2010, 03:35:33 PM »
OK, I have not yet started reloading; hopefully I will have the dough saved up in a month or so to buy a reloading kit.

But in the meantime, I got a set of dial calipers from the PIF thread here, and decided to play around measuring things. I pulled out some 8mm Mauser cases that I fired a few days ago, and pulled out the Lyman reloading manual. My understanding is that when the cases get fired, the stretch and need to be resized and maybe trimmed back before being used again.

The diagram in the manual shows the empty case length at 2.240, the trim-to length is listed at 2.230. But all my spent cases are measuring between 2.222 and 2.230. Does that mean that they don't need resizing or trimming before use? Or would the resizing die push them out to a longer length?

These cases were brand new Prvi Partizan ammo and have been fired once in a Turkish Mauser.

Out of further curiosity, I measured a couple of once fired .35 Remington cases and a .35 Whelen case and compared those to the manual, too. All of them measured a couple thousandths less than the trim-to length. the inside diameters on the .35 cal cases are all right at .356-.358.

Further examination on the Whelen case revealed that it is very close to the diagram specs for diameters all the way around. The fattest part of the case all the way back at the primer end is exactly at spec, the part of the case where the shoulder starts is .004 over, and the smaller end of the shoulder is .003 over. Is that the part of the case that the resizing die is going to restore to specs?

Offline red alder ranch

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 03:39:59 PM »
the .35 Rem cases are only about .001 over at the small diameter of the shoulder, and .004 over at the fatter part of the shoulder.

If it matters, the .35 Rem gun is a Marlin 336, and the Whelen is a sporterized Mauser with a bored out 30-06 barrel.

Offline necchi

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 05:57:19 PM »
Well I'm kinda new too, but maybe I can answer a little bit.

The over all length will change when the case is resized, it's the neck that stretches when the resizing "ball" comes back out to get the neck the right size for the bullet. You'll see guy's talking about Full length resizing, that's when the entire die is used to reshape the case,,this will cause max case strech and wear. Then they talk about "neck" sizing,,you either use the FL die and only do the neck or get a special "neck sizing die" that only does that part,,this equal less working of the case and less stretch. There are never ending discussions about what's best.

 The over size you see at the neck is from the brass streching to fit the chamber on YOUR gun, each and every rifle is just a bit different. This is called "fire forming" or is just a result from shooting that case in your gun. This can be good, many want their brass to fit their chamber and will only use the sizing die to "bump" the case a little bit so it fit's in the chamber proper. BUT then, that case can then be only used in THAT gun,,"prioritized" they call it, it might not fit another gun.

That's the best part of loading for me, being able to make "custom" ammo for my gun.  ;)

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Offline Czech_too

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 10:34:22 PM »
"Does that mean that they don't need resizing or trimming before use? Or would the resizing die push them out to a longer length?"

Regardless of the fired case dimensions, they still have to be resized prior to seating the bullet.  Now whether you full length resize or neck size is your call.  If you're going to use these cases in ONLY one particular rifle, then you could neck size.  If there's a chance that this ammo will be used in another rifle, then you should full length size.

The expanding ball in the resizing die may cause the neck to stretch some, which is why you should check the brass to see if it needs to be trimmed AFTER resizing.  My experience has been that factory brass is always 'short' of the specs shown in the manuals.  It MAY never need to be trimmed over the lifetime of the brass.

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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 11:56:36 PM »
Quote from: red alder ranch link=topic=195795.msg 1098996385#msg 1098996385 date=1263436533
My understanding is that when the cases get fired, the stretch and need to be resized and maybe trimmed back before being used again.
Correct. Trimming likely will not be required each time, but yes to the sizing.

The diagram in the manual shows the empty case length at 2.240, the trim-to length is listed at 2.230. But all my spent cases are measuring between 2.222 and 2.230. Does that mean that they don't need resizing or trimming before use? Or would the resizing die push them out to a longer length?
See above. As Czech mentioned, if the case was fired in a good chamber, they will grow in the sizing die as the expander is removed. Proper lubing will keep this to a minimum. Again, sans checking for a good chamber, measuring the cases before sizing doesn't tell you much.

Out of further curiosity, I measured a couple of once fired .35 Remington cases and a .35 Whelen case and compared those to the manual, too. All of them measured a couple thousandths less than the trim-to length. the inside diameters on the .35 cal cases are all right at .356-.358.
Again, this doesn't really tell you anything. Every chamber is different. But generally all cases need some sort of re-sizing before they can be reloaded.

Further examination on the Whelen case revealed that it is very close to the diagram specs for diameters all the way around. The fattest part of the case all the way back at the primer end is exactly at spec, the part of the case where the shoulder starts is .004 over, and the smaller end of the shoulder is .003 over. Is that the part of the case that the resizing die is going to restore to specs?
The one place to measure a case, is the area just above the web. This is useful in load development. As a new loader, this is likely a bit above you just now. For now, just put the caliper away until after you re-size the case. Then if the OAL is a bit short, (couple thousandths) as long as it not one that needs its bullet crimped, its not a real big deal.
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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 08:09:49 AM »
All posts +1

You guys are spot on today!

As stated, measuring unsized brass only tells you about your chamber. It tells you what "it" is, as well as its relationship to spec. It can also tell you how much you are going to work your brass bringing it back to spec. The more the brass is worked, the sooner it will wear out. In rifles, I only full length size for my Autoloaders and a pair of 257 Roberts.

My OPINION is the brass needs to fit the chamber - not necessarily the spec. If your chamber is out of spec, it can be viewed as a custom chamber, to a degree. I have a custom 30-06 with a tight chamber. It will chamber all factory loads, but will not accept brass having been fired in a different rifle (which I also have) until it has been full length sized in my custom 30-06 sizer die. A standard 30-06 sizer will not bring it in to fit the custom chamber. My early on solution was to just full length size all the brass, but later I switched to keeping them seperated by headstamp - which I do anyway, so not an extra step there. The 'other' 30-06 is soon to be my 35 Whelen - end of duplication problem - LOL!

Another opinion is the brass that headspaces on the shoulder, like your 35 Whelen, can stand to be a little short in the neck and never need trimming after maybe the first time. If they are long, the end of the case will be jammed into the chamber and pressures will sky-rocket.

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Sweetwater
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Offline huntducks

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 10:50:17 AM »
I would say the average pcs of brass FL sized will stretch from .003-.006 every time you FL resize.

I hate trimming brass so I have lots of brass in each Cal. and neck size as much as I can.
Remember it's where the first bullet goes out of a cold barrel that counts most.

Offline red alder ranch

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 11:05:09 AM »
I assume that I need a separate die for just neck sizing, then...

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 11:45:49 AM »
I assume that I need a separate die for just neck sizing, then...
True beck sizing yes. But you can adjust a FL sizer to do a darn good job!! 

Also the LEE Collet neck sizing die is another great choice.

CW
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Offline Ron T.

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 11:03:16 PM »
I assume that I need a separate die for just neck sizing, then...

Actually... no... you can neck size with full-length resizing dies.  Merely back the full-length resizing die back (out) until in just resizes MOST (but not quite "all") of the cartridge's neck.  This won't full-length resize the whole cartridge case... it will only resize most of the neck which will enable the neck to hold the bullet securely.

As long as you're shooting the brass in the SAME, bolt-action or the SAME single shot rifle in which it was fired before, neck sizing is all you need to do... and this will help preserve your brass and give you longer brass life because you're "working" the brass less.  Doing so also tends to give you added accuracy.

However, if you have two different rifles in the same caliber, you should keep their brass separate and reuse the same brass in the same rifle rather than "mix" the brass and shoot it indiscrimenately in either rifle.

However, if you're reloading for a lever-action, pump-action or semi-auto rifle, then you MUST full-length resize because none of these actions have the powerful "cam-ing" action of the bolt-action rifles and a case that is not full-length resized may "stick" or hang-up in the rifle's chamber... or not allow the action to be closed on a reloaded cartridge.

Of course, you can also buy a new neck-sizing die, but... again... the regular full-length resizing die works just fine when used to neck-size only in bolt-action rifles.

In single shot rifles, you must be a lot more careful in setting the height of the resizing die.  If you leave any "bulge" in the case's neck due to resizing it LESS than down to the beginning of the shoulder, then you will have to PUSH the cartridge into the single shot's chamber that last tiny bit of length due to the neck being not resized just above where the shoulder begins. 

Reloading rounds for a single shot rifle is one place where it might be better to order a new neck-sizing only die rather than attempting to use a full-length resizing die backed off to neck-size only.  However, you CAN use the full-length resizing die IF you are very, very careful in setting up the full-length resizing die up so that it EXACTLY resizes the whole neck all the way down to the shoulder, but not quite touching the shoulder itself.

Trim the case AFTER it is resized (either full-length or neck sized).  After trimming, don't forget to chamfer the inside and outside of the case's mouth to eliminate the slight extended "edge" created when the case mouth is trimmed.

The idea in chamfering the case-mouth is NOT to sharpen it's edge of the case-mouth, but rather to simply eliminate the slight "edge" created when the case-mouth is trimmed.

Once the above operations are accomplished, THEN measure the case to insure it is within "specs".

One of the primary purposes in trimming the case is to insure that ALL cases are the same length which helps to release the bullet during fired at the same point thus enhancing accuracy.

Neck-sizing also supposedly enhances accuracy since the cartridge case already perfectly fits the rifle's chamber and none of the powder's energy is "used up" in flattening the cartridge case against the inside of the rifle's chamber since you didn't resize the case's walls, but only the case's neck.

The only rifle I full-length resize the cartridge case for is my Savage Model 99 lever-action rifle.  For the rest of my center-fire rifles (all bolt-actions or single-shots), I only neck-size.  I've been doing it that way for almost a half century and it works for me. 

ALL of my center-fire rifles, including the Model 99, shoot 3-shot groups, using my handloads, of less than a minute of angle (less than 1" at 100 yards)... some MUCH LESS than a minute-of-angle!~!~!

No brag, just fact.   :)


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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: really basic, beginner's case measuring question
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 10:22:28 AM »
"No brag, just fact."   Quote Will Sonnet in 'The Guns of Will Sonnet'

Showing your age there, Ron T.

But then again, you don't gain that kind of experience overnight! Good Post!!

I do have one question, probably because I don't remember this happening when I was shooting TC's competitively, and never had any other single-shot rifle/pistol. I only neck-sized my 6.5TCU and don't recall ever having a neck bulge due to not sizing all the way to the shoulder. Doesn't happen on my bolt gun cartridges, either. I was guessing it might be the closeness I was coming to my shoulders, then remembered I only come down about 2/3's or less on my 8x57mm as I seat the bullets long in that rifle.Still no noticable bulge, which I do see on some of my revolver cases at the bottom of the bullet after seating. Only thing I can think of is neck dimension in die vs neck dimension in chamber. If all is well in the world, the case should fit the chamber unsized, as that's what it just came out of. A bit of neck sizing to increase the snugness of the bullet is "flowing" the brass enough for a bulge large enough to be out of spec? That would sound like a lube thing to me or possibly just running the ram too fast. Not an arguement, just a curiosity. Am I all wet?

Insight?

Another accuracy tip for single-shots is indexing the cartridge when you feed it. ie always keeping the headstamp in the same position. It can enhance the effects of the neck-sized case by laying them in the chamber the same as when it was originally fired. Harder to do in repeaters, but not impossible - slow.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater