New Buf. Clas. 45-70 Owner w/Question

[David I.]

Thanks gcrank1, also very useful info. I'll be looking into some loads also. I do have a slight concern regarding not filling the case enough. If a certain powder only reqires a small amount I worry about "side of case rupture". I ran into that once with a 45LC load using a powder that didn't fill case very much at all. I'll have to do some resarch on this for the 45-70.

[quickdtoo]

Here's a bunch of low velocity cast data using pistol powders.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[David I.]

Thanks for the link Quick, very interesting. I am still worried about using pistol powder and not filling the case enough. As they say..."once burned twice shy", in this case " once ruptured twice shy". As usual I always err on the side of caution. I will probably opt to go with a powder that fills the case more. I noticed Chuck Hawks talks about using IMR 3031 with good results. Any input on that powder or any other powder for that matter?

[David I.]

To explain myself a little further, I would prefer using a powder that fills the case fairly well (I don't mean completely fill). I really don't want to use a powder that won't fill case much not only because I don't want any case side ruptures but also because I don't care to have to fool around with the possibility of adding fillers or Dacron padding, etc. I need to look into powders that might fill case better. I haven't really researched too much yet, but I will be looking into RL-7, 5744, 3031,Trail Boss, IMR4227. My loads will be using 300gr hard cast bullets, any comments would be appreciated.

[gcrank1]

Please dont use any fillers and chance a chamber ring. Yes, some have shot 'thousands' of rounds without trouble, but there is far to much data regarding this to ignore nowdays. The rifle you wreck will be your own.
I doubt the case side split was due to using a fast powder, if so nobody would be using it any longer after ALL these many years.
Drawn brass, in the process of making cases, goes thru stresses that create weak spots, thicker & thinner, throughout. It is amazing that it holds up at all. So, given that, and say, an overly large chamber, then subsequent resizing (down) and blowing back out in repeated firings, something has got to give.
I would shoot those Unique loads without hesitation to get aquainted with the rifle, if nothing else. Chamber a round, tip the muzzle up to orient the powder to the rear, and carefully lower to sight. Enjoy!

[quickdtoo]

5744 is an excellent choice, it works great in the 45-120 at 40-50% load density. I've read the SR4759 is another good one, but I've never used it in the 45-70. Of course there's the never fail light load powder Trail Boss. 

Tim

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[David I.]

Thanks for the replies gcrank1 and Quick. I have to say when My case blew out years ago I do remember they were brand new cases and a couple more had slight bulges! I can't remember the powder but I did get the specs for loading it from a loading manual....I do remember there was very little powder in case. I then switched to Unique with same brass and had no problems. I know it was the powder, maybe "too fast" along with hardly any in large 45LC case. I do think it's best to use a powder that fills case pretty well.....definately my preferance.

[David I.]

I dug through some of my old records, most of which was thrown out regarding that load, but I did find something referencing Red Dot at 6.3 gr for 200gr SWC as a starting point for light load. I'm pretty sure it was Red Dot I used when I had the problem. I do NOT recommend that load to anyone for 45LC to be on the safe side....no matter what the manuals say. When I switched to Unique at 10gr for 200gr SWC 45LC using the same brass I had no problems at all for 6 reloadings. I also found my records and do now recall checking with Ruger regarding my chamber sizes....they all checked out fine. From everything I've read regarding loading "old time" cases like 45LC and 45-70 (even with todays modern brass), it's best to use a powder that fills the case fairly well to avoid the rupturing problem. I agree based on first hand knowledge and it does make a lot of sense. The 45LC case is none too thick anyway, if it was a bad batch of brass at the time....then I should have had a problem with the hotter Unique loads but I did not. I'm convinced to use loads that fill the case more, atleast with the 45LC.

[dangerranger]

  IMR 4198 should get you there . with a 300gr cast slug hodgedons site shows that a max charge of 36 gr should get you 1760fps while keeping the pressure down to 20000cup. probably only half fill your cases. its not as fast as trail boss, or red dot, but wont have the pressure spike either. I heard of several cowboy shooters guns being blownup by trying to shoot two small of a charge. hodgedons answer was powders like tightgroup, littlegun, and trailboss. they are all supose to be"not position sensitive." [large case, small powder charge]and dont need any fillers to keep them in place. but being fast powders they will bump the pressure up. I use tightgroup in my 45lc not because I want to slow them down but because I use so much less shot to shot. Im kind of cheap that way. but I get a much louder report, and its at the upper end of the pressure scale for its velosity. just my 2c. DR

[David I.]

Thanks dangerranger for your 2 cents as you put it., your knowledge, observations, experience, and comments are very appreciated.....they are truely a breath of fresh air regarding the points I was trying to make on the subject. Sometimes people can't seem to accept reality until it blows up in their face.....I'm not willing to take that chance, I heed the warning signs when I know it wasn't my equipment or me.

[gcrank1]

Most CAS use as little a load as will score their close targets in fast shooting where recovery time to get back on target is important. These light loads do take up only a small part of the total case capacity, but it is not that that blows up their guns. This 'mythology' aside, it is double charges of that powder, ie, reloader error, that spikes the pressure past the strength of the gun. Every one of them will swear they didnt make a 'mistake'. If they would actually read, then follow the proper reloading procedure to ensure visually that each case does not have a double charge before seating the bullets, this wouldnt be happening. Their is a reason manufacturers do not warantee their arms with reloads.

[David I.]

I do understand what you're saying and sometimes double charging is the case with some people.....it was NOT the case with my loads., absolutely no question. It is not a "myth" that case rupture can happen with 45LC using too fast a powder in small quantities (very low case volume). It HAS happened and has been documented and written about years ago and has been proven no matter what you say, think, or assume. Let's be SAFE and err on the side of caution......especially for other people reading this! I'm NOT going to argue with you, if you don't want to believe the facts that is your own choice but I do not and will not condone the use of small quantities of fast powder in large cases such as the 45LC unless it's NOT POSITION SENSITIVE powder. I'm NOT saying ALL previous stated loads will rupture case....don't change my wording. I'm saying with certain powders such as Red Dot it can happen and to be very very careful and that I don't recommend it, I was very very careful as I always am and had more than one case with bulging and one rupture which I explained earlier. I'm not the only person that has had this problem that was NOT due to double charging, for the life of me I can't understand why you can't accept this. I can see your mind is made up, so I must gracefully decline to discuss it with you any further.....life is too short and I have more important things to do. I think I made myself clear on the safety point of this issue for other readers, that was my biggest concern. I don't believe this forum is the best place to argue, maybe dangerranger will be willing to discuss it further with you but I no longer care to.

[gcrank1]

Sorry if you took that personally, David, but I was responding to Dangerranger's comment regarding CAS guns 'blowing up'.
'nuff said, Im done with this thread
God Bless all and safe shootin'

[teddy12b]

Nice rifle!  You've got to post some pictures of with soem targets you've shot never time you go to the range.

[WFN]

Congrats on the BC, lots of good info on this thread.

I also bought a 45/70 Buffalo Classic at Cabela's recently. It was $379, afterwards I ordered a buffalo burger to celebrate. I have shot just factory ammo so far, the 405 Rem and 325 Hornady leverution. Was thinking about ordering some Double Tap 405gr @ 1800 FPS, has anyone tried this ammo? I have heard mixed reviews on their handgun ammo claimed FPS vs actual.

For recoil reduction I bought a Pachmeyer Decelerator small size, fits well and does not slip off. I have heard of some stock splits with full lead shot so I put some lead split shot in a 3/4 vinyl tube and sealed it at both ends with 1/4" rubber. Dunno if this recoil gizmo works any better than the mercury ones, but between the pad and the lead it sure softens the felt recoil with the Hornady rounds.

[David I.]

Thanks WFN for the input. I had to purchase my BC on-line, I found one at Jims Sporting Goods in Canton PA.....I think he may have 1 or 2 more if I'm not mistaken in case anyone's interested. When I spoke to him over the phone he was a man of few words but was a pleasure to deal with none the less. His price was decent but of course I had to pay $25 shipping plus 3% for using a charge card and then a small fee to my local FFL holder, but I knew that up front. I was unable to find a BC anywhere else and all the distributors seem to be out of them. I feel lucky to have found one so the extra $ didn't bother me terribly. I'm sure there are some other small retail stores out there that probably have one on their shelf but those stores aren't so easy to find (no web site). I suppose a person could get on-line and pick some locations and punch them up in the "yellow pages" under gun stores or something and then call them on the old telephone! I'm also happy to get one manufactured before they closed the MA plant and moved operations to Remington. I heard they initially had some problems with the first batch of frames but I don't know that for sure. I'm sure they will work the bugs out but for now I heard there aren't too many available for various reasons. Since a large part of my background is in manufacturing I know first hand how these things can go. In reference to your home made recoil reducer in the stock., I also will be making something similar for mine since the mercury ones are around $50. I believe the FAQ's section of this forum has info also on homemade style(s). Oh yah, I hope you enjoyed your buffalo burger!

[quickdtoo]

See the MPC link in the FAQs on mercury recoil reducers, they have them on sale for $30.50, regular price was $35, same thing I paid 4yrs ago.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks Tim, appreciate it.