How safe is a loaded B78 or 1885 ?

[Chimbu]

Following assorted  replies to a related topic that I posted recently I’m seeking verification regarding the safe handling of a loaded Browning B78. Not having a B78 owner’s manual I sourced the following relevant data from a Browning 1885 manual :
 
After loading the rifle, when shooting is not imminent, the correct position of the hammer is at half-cock, from which you need only thumb the hammer back to the full-cock position to prepare the rifle for firing. The half-cock notch on the hammer is a safety feature designed to protect against accidental discharge of the rifle in the event the hammer slips from the thumb while the rifle is been cocked. The half-cocked position should be used for handling and storage – any time that the rifle is not actually being fired. It is important to note that the Model 1885 has an inertia sear which prevents the hammer from going to the dropped position unless the trigger is pulled.

I was curious about whether the short distance travelled by the half-cocked hammer and the apparent minimal striking force are in fact enough to ‘send a projectile into orbit’. Accordingly, I performed a simple test which involved loading a primed EMPTY case into the chamber and then pulling the trigger. Not surprisingly  – BANG !! 

Accordingly, I would very much appreciate it if other reloading B78 and 1885 owners could verify the matter by duplicating the test and then reporting back your results - for the safety benefit of all such firearm owners.
 
Note, if such results are similar to mine then one could argue that the only absolutely reliable safe way of hunting with a B78 / 1885 is with an UNLOADED chamber – just pray you don’t have a close encounter with an aggressive predator in the process !

I look forward to your replies, Ross.

[Old Grizz]

The half cock safety has been around for many years on leverguns and will be as safe as the person carrying it. Marlin has installed an addtional safety on their levers as a safety precaution probably against law suites. As far as a half cock hammer striking a primer I would think it would be enough to go off but  I have tried it.

[G Curtis]

The inertial safety applies when the rifle is at half cock as well. You cannot drop the hammer from half cock to the firing pin by pulling the trigger. The only way you can hit the firing pin with the hammer is to have it at full cock, pull the trigger and have the hammer fall at full speed to the firing pin.

If you have it all full cock and are using your thumb to lower the hammer and it slips off of you thumb part way down, the inertial safety will block the firing pin. If at half cock and the trigger is pulled, the safety prevents the firing pin from being hit or even pushed against.

If you have a dirty gun or a well oiled gun in cold weather and the trigger is pulled at full cock and the hammer falls a little slow, the safety will prevent the rifle from firing.

[Chimbu]

G Curtis, thanks for your reply. You stated, “You cannot drop the hammer from half cock to the firing pin by pulling the trigger.” Unfortunately, with my old B78, you can. This implies that the original owner/s had tampered with the trigger/hammer assembly - resulting in the half-cock position being no longer SAFE for carrying the rifle in a loaded state. 

Note, I consciously questioned the associated safety aspect of this happening when I first bought the rifle but, correct me if I’m wrong, the following statement from the 1885 manual may be considered to be ambiguous as it does not specifically identify whether the hammer drops from the full or half-cocked position, to the fired position, when the trigger’s pulled :
 
“It is important to note that the Model 1885 has an inertia sear which prevents the hammer from going to the dropped position unless the trigger is pulled”.

Considering that this could be interpreted from the half-cocked position I accepted the fact that my B78 was functioning properly. However, I was fearful that a hammer ‘accidently’ dropped from the half-cocked position would have enough striking force to fire off a primer – as verified by my recent test. Accordingly, I initially elected to carry the loaded rifle with the hammer in the fired position (with the firing pin very lightly touching the primer) – my reasoning being that the hammer spur was ‘safely’ tucked away under the scope and thus unlikely to be ever accidently jolted hard enough to similarly fire off a primer.
 
For consideration - following various people questioning this potentially ‘unsafe’ practice I elected to put it to the test today: with a primed EMPTY case in the chamber and the hammer in the dropped or fired position I firmly struck the hammer spur several times with a wooden dowel – resulting in only a slight indent in the primer. I then placed one end of the dowel against the spur and then similarly struck the other end with a small carpenter’s hammer – BANG. In conclusion, it looks like I’ll be loading the rifle only when potential game are encountered !!
 
In their wisdom, Browning have apparently modified the later 1885 model to be SAFER when carrying a loaded rifle.  However, I wonder how many other B78’s have had a ‘trigger adjustment’ and, like mine, are now similarly UNSAFE when the hammer’s in the half-cocked position !?
Cheers, Ross.

[G Curtis]

I did check the 4 rifles in my safe. 1 Browning B-78, 1 Browning Low wall, 1 Winchester high wall and 1 Winchester low wall rimfire. None would drop the hammer by pulling the trigger at half cock.

It does sound like your trigger has been modified.

[Daman]

I hope yours is a one of a kind in that aspect cause a Browning B78 30-06 is in my near future. I will try it when I am able to get one. If it does what yours does, it will be swapped back for either a BLR or BAR.

Daman

[Chimbu]

Daman, I've had numerous replies regarding the proper function of the B78 / 1885's half-cock hammer position - by all accounts mine is DEFECTIVE as the hammer definitely SHOULD NOT fall to the fired position when the trigger's pulled. I don't honestly know whether the relevant 'trigger locking mechanism' has worn due to extensive usage by the previous owner/s or if its being made inoperative by a botched trigger adjustment in the past. Accordingly, I've sort the services of another Gunsmith to investigate, and hopefully fix, the matter in the near future. I hope the B78 30-06's half-cock 'safe' position functions properly because they are otherwise a soundly constructed, unique rifle. All the best with it.  Cheers, Ross. 

[Daman]

Thanks Chimbu

I was able to hold one in a gun shop the other day. It functioned flawlessly. It has been added to my wish list.

Daman

[Chimbu]

Daman, good to hear that you trialled a proper functioning B78 - they're one heck of a beautiful rifle. All the best with your coming purchase. Ross.

[Hank08]

I just checked one of mine and the hammer can't even be lowered all the way from full cock ,with the trigger pulled ,it stops at the 1/2 cock notch but it never fails to go all the way when firing it.  Pretty safe system.
H08

[Chimbu]

A big hearty thanks to whoever posted the following B78 instructional extract (randomly sourced and filed several years ago, from an unknown forum, when I first bought my rifle) :
 

“There are two screws on the trigger itself, the rear one is over travel and the front one controls the position of the connector bar, which trips the sear, which lets go of the hammer. The pull weight adjustment is in a hole in the receiver itself. The pull weight adjustment takes a 1/16 allen wrench, but the others require a 1.5mm. If the connector rests too far from the sear, it misses it when the trigger is pulled. If it’s too close the whole arrangement becomes inoperative. There is a critical point where things function. I even managed to get into a place where the trigger would trip from half cock ! In order to adjust the trigger take up, you need to adjust the large blued screw with the two little holes in it. Turn it clockwise and it should take up some of the slack, however you usually can’t get rid of all of it.”


Accordingly, I decided to minutely adjust ONLY the trigger’s connector bar sear engagement screw and, as mentioned above, I soon fortunately managed to find the critical point where the hammer persistently no longer falls to the fired position, from the half-cock position, when the trigger’s pulled. In turn, I’m an extremely grateful and happy B78 owner !



In hindsight, I’m questioning the knowledge, competency and integrity of the Gunsmith I recently rang regarding my ‘faulty’ B78 as he was notably unsure as to what the cause of the problem might be. In reality – a very simple minute turn of an easily accessible screw !
 

Where relevant, I hope others might also benefit from the various adjustment procedures mentioned in the extract.
Cheers, Ross.