Author Topic: sluging my FA 454 (Read 2323 times)

david.bergen · « **on:** January 12, 2010, 08:51:59 AM »

As I want to start shooting cast bullets I slugged my mod 83 today.
The cilinder is very uniform, all the throats measure .4525-.4526 so everything is good I suppose.
Then I slugged the barrel . A slug driven completely through from the muzzle till the rear measures .454 dia.
When I only slug the throat and barrel at the cilinder side it .0002 larger. (I measured as carefully as I could with metric tools and then converted to inches) These dimensions aren't the best for shooting cast bullets.
Maybe I can open the throats but as the chambers are pretty tight I can only add that much.
Anybody suggestions?
I have shot .452 sized LBT LFN bullets cast from waterdropped wheelweights and didn't have any leading.
Jacket bullets shoot ok
David

myronman3 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:34:51 AM »

i think sometimes people get caught up in the details just a wee bit too much. does your gun shoot accurately? (that was a rhetorical question) and no leading? just shoot it.

david.bergen · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:52:03 AM »

Accuracy with jacket bullets is ok.
I haven't done serious group shooting with cast bullets. No leading when shot with the gc bullets.

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2010, 11:27:56 AM »

Opening cylinder mouths will void any warranty that exists. I agree with Myronman3. Shoot it.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2010, 11:32:31 AM »

I would be more inclined to believe your technique was at fault than that the bore on that FA is off that much from spec.

david.bergen · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:30:32 PM »

I was shocked to find the .454 dimension as well.
I used a soft cast .45-70 bullet for slugging. Starting dimension was .459
For measuring I both used a mitutoyo caliper (0.01 mm calibrated and a micrometer also 0.01 mm METRIC )
results for both are the same. I know my way around the machine shop and use measering tools daily.
I'll do the measering again today with a lathe turned lead slug (I have some LBT push through slugs for my .44 as a model, I'll just make them larger for the .454)

I did some velocity testing with low, medium and high velocity loads

300 H&N kupfer geschosse
7.1 trailboss gives 784 ft/s
10.9 win 231 gives 1120ft/s

360 WFN gc
6 trailboss gives 720ft/s

335 LFN gc
18.5 HS 6 gives 1520 ft/s (this is a to heavy load as i got sticky cases. DON'T USE IT !)

I received a cansister H110 and bluedot wich I'll test next time.
Does anybody has experience with vithavuori n110? It seems as it's almost the same as "2400" powder.
Maybe that's a good one for a medium load with the cast bullets. (1200-1300 ft/s)
David

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:15:01 AM »

V V N110 is a slow powder most suitable for heavy loads, like WW 296 or H-110. I would use none of these for medium velocity loads. 2400 can be used in reduced loads, as well as full power loads. So can Blue Dot, although I've personally never been a fan of that powder. HS6 is popular for mid-range loads only. The charge you refer to is indeed too heavy to be optimum.
Cast bullets should be sized to fit the chamber mouths, or up to .001" over, assuming they will still chamber in the tight FA chambers.

paul105 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2010, 03:27:00 AM »

I have an older .454. The bore slugs at .453 and the cyl throats are approx .4525 (.452 plug gage go, .453 no go). I get the most consistent results using cast bullets sized .453 and .454, and gas checked designs seem to be less finicky. As Ken mentioned above, this will require some attention to seating depth due to the tight throats and abrupt leads (sometimes) on FA cyls. On moderate recoil loads, a light roll crimp or a taper crimp is all that is needed, so you can crimp pretty much anywhere on the bullet. Good, tight neck tension will also help and is a necessity on heavier loads.

Paul

david.bergen · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2010, 10:34:23 AM »

My cylinder has also the abrupt throats, but they seem to work ok. Only the WFN give problem when it's not sized enough.
A hard push will seat most ok. What I did notice when shooting soft bullets (air cooled ww) that there is sometimes a lead ring or a piece
off it. I think the new brass is still a bit short and leaves a place were the bullet can obturate. When it's pushed through the throat it shaves the lead off leaving a ring.

The serial nr off the gun is D166xx is this an older gun?

Seems that N110 is a good powder for either medium or full powder loads. Speer also used it for reduced 454 Casull loads.

david.bergen · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2010, 10:25:03 AM »

I reslugged my barrel and it still measures .454 dia
I have loaded some ammo and going tomorrow to the range.
335 LFN with 7.5 trailboss
335 LFN with 11.5 win 231
300 H&N with 11.5 win 231
360 WFN with 23 H110

All the bullets are gc and sized to .452
a picture included

David

david.bergen · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2010, 10:54:22 AM »

And a picture off the second slug I used,
and close up on the ammo I am going to test tomorrow.

.454 sized push through slug (LBT bore slug)

top 360 WFN
middle 325 LFN (334 lubed and gascheck installed)
lower 300 H&N kupfer geschoss
David

david.bergen · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2010, 09:26:06 PM »

Velocity updates.

335 LFN with 11.5 "231" gives 1137ft/s
360 WFN with 23 H110 gives 1148ft/s (this is slower as I expected, maybe there is room to load higher)
335 LFN with 7.5 Trail Boss 798ft/s

No leading , groups shot at 50m are in the 6-7 inch range with iron sights. The gun shoots way to high with the rear sight completely down.
David

paul105 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2010, 05:27:13 AM »

David,

Here are a couple of targets I shot recently. I was using my FA83, 6” Field Grade with a 4x Leupold scope and all groups were shot at 25 yds from a bench rest position. I have an extra .45 Colt cylinder for my gun. If you look closely, you can see “45 Colt” in the notations next to several group (270 SAA 7.8 HP38, 300gr Lee 22.5 H110, and 335gr LBT 22.5 H110) – those were shot using the .45 Colt cylinder. The other loads were shot using the .454 cyl. My goal was to optimize the 300gr Horn XTP Mag load.

Bullets:
Montana Bullet Works
300gr LBT LFNGC sized .452 (crimped in crimp grove)
335gr LBT WLNGC sized .452 (crimped in crimp grove)
300gr Lee WFNGC Dual Crimp (crimped in grove closest to nose – shortest OAL).

Mount Baldy Bullets
270gr (SAA) plain base sized .453 (crimped over front drive band)

Hornady
300gr JHP XTP Mag . (crimped in crimp grove)

The 300gr Horn XTP (30.5 H110) chronographed a shade over 1,600 fps (only load chronoed)

The 270 SAA, (sized .453/.454 w/7.8gr HP38) runs about 950fps from a 6” bbl and has been consistently accurate when loaded in either .45 Colt of .454 cases. I crimp this load over the front drive band due to tight throats with both cylinders.

Paul

david.bergen · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2010, 08:24:06 AM »

That's very good shooting Paul.
I'll think I'll still have a long way to go.
It's a pity I can't try the xtp bullets as they are illegal to shoot in a handgun in Belgium.
I have tried some Sierra 300 grains but was told they are not designed for high pressure loads.
Do you have other bullet suggestions?
I was looking for a RCBS 270 SAA mould on e-bay but I bought a RCBS 300 swcgc mould instead.
Maybe I have to start searching again as you are getting good results with it.
Sadly I don't have a 45 colt cylinder. I like shooting the medium loads more then the full power loads but find it hard to get
good consistent loads when using the 454 brass and medium loads.

david.bergen · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2010, 08:28:16 AM »

Paul,
Is it correct that you are using 22.5 H110 in 45 colt brass with the 335 LBT bullet?
Do you have an idea how high I can go wit the 360 and 335 LBT bullet in 454 brass with H110 powder?
David

paul105 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2010, 12:55:43 PM »

That RCBS 300gr SWGC is one of Lloyd Smale's favorite .45 bullets -- maybe he'll see this thread and comment.

Hodgdon's online load data manaul is a good source 335 and 360gr cast bullets.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

335 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.770" 23.0 1321 22,200 CUP 26.0 1531 41,600 CUP

360 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.760" 21.0 1265 24,000 CUP 24.0 1447 43,400 CUP

david.bergen · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2010, 09:13:57 PM »

Thanks for the info.
I only get 1148ft/s with 23 H110 and the LBT 360 gr.
that's a big difference with the data

360 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.760" 21.0 1265 24,000 CUP 24.0 1447 43,400 CUP

Bearbait in NM · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2010, 05:33:25 AM »

David,

As to the medium loads, have you tried HS-6 or Tightgroup. I have had excellent results with lead and jacketed in bullet weights from 250-300 grains. I have gone to about 1200 fps with these bullet weights with zero problems and excellent accuracy. Unfortunately, my best groups have been with XTP bullets, but these are only slightly better than factory bought lead or plated bullets.

Craig

david.bergen · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:42:54 AM »

I have HS-6 powder .
I tried it with the 335LFN but that load was to hot. Not all but sometimes i got a sticky case.
Velocity with 19 grains was just over 1500 ft/s
That's a max load with a jacketed 300 gr. bullet so I thought it would be ok with the cast LFN.
I haven't tried it with lighter loads. If you have some good loads you can share . I am all ears.
David

454PB · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2010, 08:05:38 AM »

I would suggest you stay away from those fast burning powders if you are looking for velocities as high as 1500 fps.

The 83 is a tough customer, but sticking brass is a warning to "back off".

My favorite powder for mid range loads is Bluedot, and for full power I use Lil'Gun, H-110, WW296, AAC #9, and WC820.

I'm also surprised to hear your barrel slugs .454", my 83 won't even chamber a round with the boolit sized over .452", and the barrel slugs .4515".

Bearbait in NM · « **Reply #20 on:** January 26, 2010, 04:17:32 AM »

David,

454PB is correct. I only used these faster powders for lighter to mid loads, not top end. You can easily get to sticking cases which is BAD sign. Even though the recoil may not seem magnum, you are in dangerous waters. Usually 8-10 or 11 grains of Tightgroup will get a 300 grain bullet near 1200 fps. The vicinity of 15 grains of hs-6 will do similarly. And my barrel is 4 3/4.

What I do mostly is work with 250 grain bullets at 1150 or so fps, sometimes a tad slower to stay under the sonic level. Can shoot them all day long, work on technique and have a lot of fun. Basically warm 45colt loads without the "fuss" of having a 45 colt cylinder fitted. And when I run them in my puma rifle I get to add a couple of hundred fps, and get solid 44mag performance or better.

Craig

Boxhead · « **Reply #21 on:** January 30, 2010, 01:17:08 AM »

So is .454" FA standard groove diameter? I was just reading an old Ross Seyfried article that touched on his FA bore measuring .454" while throats were .452" and groups were not as tight as they should be. Is the .454" bore a fluke or are they all that way with tighter throats and still shoot the fine groups I have seen?

Racer X · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2010, 04:00:14 PM »

Quote from: Boxhead on January 30, 2010, 01:17:08 AM

So is .454" FA standard groove diameter? I was just reading an old Ross Seyfried article that touched on his FA bore measuring .454" while throats were .452" and groups were not as tight as they should be. Is the .454" bore a fluke or are they all that way with tighter throats and still shoot the fine groups I have seen?

Awhile back, I asked one of the builders at FA what the cylinder throat and groove diamter specs are for a Model 83 454. His answer was pretty similar to what you stated above. You always hear how accurate FAs are, but those factory specs violate everything Ruger Blackhawk custom builders tell those dimensions should be.

myronman3 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 07, 2010, 04:56:16 AM »

you are right. f.a.'s pistols are inaccurate.

never mind the fact that the 44 i had was the most accurate handgun i had ever shot. i could put a 12 gauge hull laying down and facing me, and back off until i could barely see it when covered by the sights. i would guess 15-20 yards. shooting freehand with a two hand grip, i could hit it almost every time. the load was a 255 grain lyman 429421 bullet over 17.5 grains of 2400; and that sucker was a shooter.

Racer X · « **Reply #24 on:** February 07, 2010, 08:11:09 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on February 07, 2010, 04:56:16 AM

you are right. f.a.'s pistols are inaccurate.
never mind the fact that the 44 i had was the most accurate handgun i had ever shot. i could put a 12 gauge hull laying down and facing me, and back off until i could barely see it when covered by the sights. i would guess 15-20 yards. shooting freehand with a two hand grip, i could hit it almost every time. the load was a 255 grain lyman 429421 bullet over 17.5 grains of 2400; and that sucker was a shooter.

You obviously did not understand my response. I never said FAs were inaccurate. What I was conveying is that FA 454s throat and groove diameters contradict what custom builders say those measurements should be.

Bob Baker · « **Reply #25 on:** February 07, 2010, 08:37:00 AM »

David, going back to your first post the only hesitation I have is the water dropping, you may end up with bullets that are too hard for the pressures you are working in. There is no way to be sure though without trying them as wheel weights vary a lot in composition, therefore they will vary in hardness. Generally for the upper end loads I like to see hardness in the upper teens.

You probably already know this but be careful with wheel weights. It can work well as long as you leech out debris really well. Some wheel weights have a high content of arsenic in them which is hard on forcing cones, some are also high in tin which will tend to tin the inside of the barrel. A tinned barrel is not only hard to clean out but you can end up with a ringed barrel or an egg shaped barrel. I have seen a few through the years.

The bullets should be sized to fit the cylinder throat. When sized properly the bullet will just slip through the throat with light resistance. Usually just use a .452 sizing die but if that makes a tight fit in the throat then you may need to drop down a bit on the sizing die, it just depends on the hardness of your material and how much spring back it is giving you. Some guys use a .4515 die so their bullets spring back to just over .452, but they are using extra hard material.

The Model 83 454 was setup for bullet weights ranging from 240 gr. to 325 gr. It will shoot heavier or lighter bullets but they are outside the ideal range so won’t work as well, as a general rule.

Now for the biggest caution, don’t over think it. Don’t worry about what the barrel is, just size the bullet for the throat and I suspect you will find the gun will group just fine. Quite a few years ago a well known writer criticized us for our barrel dimensions in one of his articles. We had hundreds of customers call demanding we open the throats on their guns. All we told them was to get a letter from said writer saying he would pay for a new cylinder made to our specs if opening the cylinder throat on their cylinder didn’t make the gun group better. We didn’t get a single taker on that. It did give us a chance to give our customers a few suggestions though, the same suggestions I have given here.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #26 on:** February 07, 2010, 12:59:12 PM »

I can honestly say ive never slugged a barrel in my life. either a gun shoots or it doesnt and so do that shouldnt and some dont that should. Your much better off taking the time a guy spends slugging and worrying about a gun and using it to sit at the range and try differnt bullets and loads. I own a 454 fa and previously owned another one and they both were exceptionaly accurate guns. I dont know what the measurements were and really dont give a ***.