CAST .459?

[David I.]

I asked a similar question a couple weeks ago, but....: I was told by some people on this forum that for my H&R BC I should probably be using .459 diam. bullets if I want to shoot hard cast and .458 if I use jacketed. No, I didn't slug my barrel yet and I'm hoping I won't have to. My question is why are there so many .458 hard cast bullets out there? Actually I'm finding mostly .458 hard cast and only a couple .459 being offered. Why is this? Apparently they are selling plenty of the .458 hard cast, I'm confused! I realize .459 would probably be ideal but will .458 cause big problems if my barrel is bored correctly? I will be shooting 300gr hard cast at approx. 1600-1800fps for reasons. Some manufacturers state their hard cast bullets are good to about 1800fps....which brings me to my second question: Do I have to shoot gas checks at this velocity? I realize over 1200fps it would be better but just how important is it? Of course I want my bullets to "fly" well, but I'm only mildly concerned about leading of my barrel unless it would happen very quickly. I can't afford to make a $50 error with the wrong bullets. I also can't afford to buy many different sizes and kinds to find my guns preference just yet. I'm asking these questions to try to avoid a costly mistake if at all possible., I'm NOT trying to be argumentive. Does anyone have experience shooting similar loads with hard cast? Has anyone ever used Chey Cast or Tru Cast bullets. I'm aware of Cast Performance Bullets w/gas check but they are a little pricey., I'm on a very low budget and only doing some target shooting at home. In time I will find a load my gun preferrs, but I would like to buy some bullets that have a good chance of working well the first time.....if possible. I recently touched on these issues with another thread in Hand Loading but it was buried in a reply to another question and I don't think many people saw it.

[Sweetwater]

Go to the auction site or your local papers and find some that aren't so pricey. If I had any that big I'd send you some, BUT I don't go that big on anything. You may find some stuff advertised at .458 to actually be .459 - just a thought as some of my 41mag stuff advertises at .410 and measures .411 - it works with zero problems. My Rugers are right at .4095 + or - .005 and my Marlin is .411 - they all work. You put pressure on a .458 cast bullet and it will go to .459 in a heartbeat. There is a big spread between perfection and acceptable. The load workup can be the fun part. One step at a time. In your setup, I wouldn't shoot a jacketed bullet on a bet. Your rifle is begging for cast bullets. I would guess the difference in your groups between the .458 and .459 would not change the group size, though may shift the point of impact. Not a problem (for me) as long as it stays in the kill zone. Tiny groups don't take game, but do help with precise shot placement - IF your sites are good enough to see the target well enough to take advantage of that precision. That's another part of the equation. Change the velocity or change the pressure and you will probably shift the point of impact. Just physics.

The older I get the less concerned I get with the concept of leading. Another area I've been lucky in, I have never had to work to get lead out of a barrel. Not with any rifle or revolver. My 94Win 1927 32WSpl carbine clocks factory 170gr Silvertips at 2100fps; same rifle clocks 182gr cast at 2230fps. SD is between 5 and 6fps. It works like a clock and groups minute of kill zone, and I stay within where I can keep them all inside the kill zone, pretty sure it will only take one shot. Only an elk took a 2nd shot - my fault, but I don't believe the Silvertip would have done any better - I simply made a poor shot.

Bullets you buy will probably either be gas-checked or not. At your stated 1800fps, very likely your rifle will tell you that you need gas-checks. My old 32WSpl will handle 1300fps, but more than that will keyhole without gaschecks. With gaschecks, I reach 2230fps and that is enough for what I'm hunting.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck. I've used Tru Cast and don't find them any better than Joe Down The Street. Not a whole lot of magic here. Some work, some don't and you won't know for sure until you squeeze the trigger on a bunch of them in YOUR rifle.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[David I.]

Thanks Sweetwater for all the info. Just so you're aware, I'm not looking for perfection...just acceptable groups of 1-2" at 100yds. I certainly don't want any keyholing though. I want to shoot cast because it's less expensive for target shooting and also a waste to use jacketed for just fun target shooting. I can ask some of the manufaturers if their .458 hard casts actually measure .458 or what. If I understand you correctly I really don't have to be too concerned whether they're .458 or .459, correct? It seems your bigger concern is if they have gas checks or not, correct? The trouble is there aren't as many gas checks out there and they are pricey. What does Tru-Cast mean when they say their 300gr FP is good to 1800fps? Are they saying I don't have to worry about any leading and don't need a gas check or what? I believe their BH is the same as most other cast bullets out there. My loads will be used for target only at 100, 300 and 400yds on calm days. As I stated earlier I'm not terribly concerned about leading unless it's very bad very quickly, but I certainly can't tolerate any key holing. I need to find some bullets soon and make a decision as to type and size even sooner. I will keep my eyes open on the auction site, but I can't wait too long for reasons I won't go into. I guess I'm still not sure what to get, but I am considering .458 hard cast w/out gas check because there are plenty out there at reasonable prices., unless more people tell me not to and why. Why do you feel "my gun" will probably tell me I need gas checks? What do you think I will encounter? Does anyone out there shoot 300gr hard cast 45-70 in an H&R BC?

[Sweetwater]

I'm not looking for perfection...just acceptable groups of 1-2" at 100yds. I certainly don't want any keyholing though. I want to shoot cast because it's less expensive for target shooting and also a waste to use jacketed for just fun target shooting. I can ask some of the manufaturers if their .458 hard casts actually measure .458 or what. If I understand you correctly I really don't have to be too concerned whether they're .458 or .459, correct? It seems your bigger concern is if they have gas checks or not, correct?
NO. The bigger concern is if they are correct for the gun I am using them in. A lot of manufacturer's offer sample packets at about what it would cost to ship. You don't want to slug your bore, so I have to think you are being too concerned at this point about the .458 vs .459 issue. Just because one guy says .459 doesn't necessarily mean YOURS will want the same bullet dia. Not sure what prices you are seeing, but I just noticed Adirondacker in the classifieds here has 435gr FNGC .459 at $15/50. Might be worth checking into.

I'm hoping CW or someone else with realtime H&R BC experience will join in here.  

What does Tru-Cast mean when they say their 300gr FP is good to 1800fps? Are they saying I don't have to worry about any leading and don't need a gas check or what? I believe their BH is the same as most other cast bullets out there.
When you purchase bullets like from TruCast, they are ready to go. If they say they are good to 1800fps, I'd be expecting them to be gaschecked. If they are not, you are not going to add a gascheck to them. That's not how it works.

My loads will be used for target only at 100, 300 and 400yds on calm days. As I stated earlier I'm not terribly concerned about leading unless it's very bad very quickly, but I certainly can't tolerate any key holing.    
300gr is real light for a 45-70 bullet. I would think you would want considerably more weight to be accurate at the ranges you are considering.  

I guess I'm still not sure what to get, but I am considering .458 hard cast w/out gas check because there are plenty out there at reasonable prices., unless more people tell me not to and why. Why do you feel "my gun" will probably tell me I need gas checks? What do you think I will encounter?
Here is where your gun will talk to you. If it doesn't like a bullet for whatever reason, it won't go where it's supposed to go. It may pattern and not group. It may keyhole. Gaschecks will usually cure keyholing IF the keyholing is being caused by velocity and bearing surface is adequate. Insufficient bearing surface will also cause this (bullet too short or with too much taper).

Does anyone out there shoot 300gr hard cast 45-70 in an H&R BC?  
This is a popular subject. Have you checked the archives to see what other have chosen? The most I read are minimum of 350gr and more likely 400gr and more. Again 45-70 is not my forte, just relating relative to what I do use in my 40-82 and 41mag rifles. Sorry I'm not more up on this. I recommend you review the archives and talk to some of the prospective sellers about sample packets. Not sure you can do what you want to achieve without investing in some "trying different stuff". Someone else's Ace Load might be the pits in your rifle. Each is an individual, just like us people.
Could use a little help here from the masters.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[David I.]

Thanks again Sweetwater. Nice of you to answer each individual concern. I may not have made myself clear on gas checks.... I DO realize they cannot be added later. I will find out if the Tru-Cast 300FP have gas checks or not. There are many loads listed for 300gr 45-70. Some people have chimed in with comments in other threads I started regarding shooting 300gr 45-70 bullets at those distances and I do understand their concerns. I do have a lot of experience shooting .45 black powder muzzle loader at similar velocities although the balistic coef. is slightly different between the bullets. I can consistantly shoot the muzzle loader at 200+ yds with 195gr bullets, probably much farther, I haven't tried yet. I have no doubt I will hit a 4'x5' target at 300 and 400yds no problem with my 45-70 on calm days with the velocities I will be loading to. It may not be the most accurate load (time will tell), but I will consistantly hit the target....as long as the bullet isn't keyholing. Someone on this forum mentioned his 45-70 loved 300gr bullets, but I'm sure he wasn't shooting at these distances. Chuck Hawks mentions a nice 300gr load that is accurate...at closer distances, I think out to 200yds. I will try looking into sample packs as you suggested, I did not know that some manuf. even do that. If I can get some sample packets fairly cheap it would be a help. I'm still hoping someone will chime in with a good bullet recommendation in 300gr hard cast, but I DO realize that it may not shoot as well in my gun. I agree every gun is different, but an experienced recommendation is a good place to start.

[boommer]

I loaded .458 300grs with trail boss for powder for my BC and granted the fps was only 1250 and shot them at 100 yards,2.5 group not great great but maybe a better powder would clean it up some. The .458 dia 300 gr in a hard cast bullet at 1800 in 45-70 cal wouldn't lead to bad I don't think. I shoot BP loads out mine and those were the only smokeless loads that I have ever shot out of that rifle. The .458 dia will work, 1800 fps no gas check? I would try it,in 25 rounds you will see what leading you get, at worst what ever bullets you have left idle them down to 1600fps.       

[David I.]

Thanks Boommer, I do appreciate it. Anyone else care to add any experienced info?

[mechanic]

I've been playing around with my BC for a couple years now almost, and have tried a  variety of loads and bullets.  If you are going to target shoot primariy, you may not want to load to 1800fps.  With 405 gr. soft cast hollow base bullets, I get outstanding accuracy at around 1200fps.  I have a mold that drops a 330gr. hollow point that I push to around 1500 for best accuracy.  I have some jacketed s.p. that I load hotter for hunting, around 1700 or so.  I have shot bullets from .457 to .459 and have been able to work up loads for them.  The most accurate I shoot is a .458 hollow base cast from a Lee mold that I got from Flash here on GB's.  I have actually had 100 yd. cloverleafs from these at a comfortable 1200.  I would hot buy up a large quantity of bullets until you settle on what shoots best, but IMO you shoud get acceptable accuracy out of most factory cast.

[David I.]

Thanks mechanic for the info, I will take it all into consideration.