Author Topic: 38 Super vs. 9x23  (Read 4994 times)

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Offline BigDaddyB

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38 Super vs. 9x23
« on: March 04, 2003, 04:40:10 AM »
Can someone explain the differences and pros/cons of these rounds?  They seem VERY similar.  

I'm starting to get into plate shooting, and am looking for a lower recoil round than .45acp.

Thanks in advance,
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Offline Mikey

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38 Super vs 9x23
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2003, 05:53:01 AM »
BigDaddy8:  the 9x23 is actually a rimless version of the 38 Super.  Due to the caliber designations, the 9x23 was so named so it wouldn't be shot through older 38 Autos or older 38 Super Autos, due to liability.  But, in good quality pistols I have used both cartridges interchangeably and have found the 9x23 to be at least as accurate as the 38 Super in my Bar-Sto barrel.

If you are shooting an older Colt 38 Super that headspaces on the narrow little rim of the 38 Super cartridge, the 9x23 may not chamber.  My Bar-Sto barrel and the newer Colt 38 Supers, and the newer european handguns in 38 Super all chamber on the case mouth, rather than the rim, making the interchangeability of the 38 Super/9x23 a real benefit.

Most American ammunition does not do justice to the 38 Super due to liability purposes but listen to this:  The original 38 Auto load took a 130 grain bullet at 1280'/sec.  When the 38 Super came along, they loaded that  round to 1280'/sec and downloaded the 38 Auto to 1080'sec.  They then downloaded the 38 Super to 1220'/sec and that's where she is today from the factory.  The accuracy load for the 38 Super from the 43 and 45 editions of the Lyman manual lists a 130 grain fmj bullet at 1400'/sec, and that is one accurate load.  Also from that manual, you can find loads for a 160 grain cast bullet in the 38 Super that is on par with 357 loads from 4" barrels.  The 9x23 takes a 125 grain bullet at, I believe, close to 1400'/sec.  You can get that from a 38 Super with a 125 grain bullet and Unique powder.    

If your handgun chambers on the case mouth rather than on the rim, you can shoot the 9x23 interchangeably.  Also, you should be able to shoot the 9mm Largo.  

Hope this helps.  Mikey.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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38 Super vs. 9x23
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2003, 04:41:36 PM »
Well, I had the bolt face opened up so I could use the .38 Super or the 9x23 or Largo or whatever (in my Destroyer Carbine).  Still has a noticeable delay between firing and impact at 100  yards.  They all run through the magazine the same, so it's just a matter of which brass (reloadable) is available.

On the other hand, I do have a .38 Super barrel and set of mags for my Colt Commander.  Haven't shot it yet even in the 9mm it came with.  Tune in tomorrow (well maybe next year when it gets it's turn to get fired).
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Offline Mikey

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38 Super vs 9x23
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2003, 04:42:25 AM »
Cat Whisperer:  I'm not so certain I would trust the Destroyer Carbine with a 38 Super.  I know that you need to open the bolt face, minutely, to get that semi-rimmed round to feed, but with the availability of surplus 9mm Largo and 9x23 brass, I would stay closer to the 9mm Largo loadings than try and go heavier with the 38 Super.

Years ago you could find Astra 400s that would accept the 38 Super, and the Star Modelo B in 9mm Largo would do the same, but we always wound up breaking irreplaceable parts using the hotter loads.  Just about the only european handgun that would safely handle the 38 Supers, at that time, was the Llama, specifically chambered for the 38 Super.  These were identified on the slide as 38 Super/9mm Largo, or 38/9mm, indicating the interchangeability of the round.

I like my little Destroyer Carbine.  Using older surplus ammo I don't get much in the way of groups at 25 yds (3-4") but using some of the newer CCI aluminum cased ammo, she groups better (2").  I've toyed with a few handloads but have found she doesn't shoot much, or any, better with cast bullets than the jacketted.  I think the twist in those barrel is a 1:10 9mm twist that favors jacketted bullets.  A buncha years ago I got a 9mm Luger or 9x19 chamber adapter for my Destroyer but never inserted it.  It's sort of like a 308 adapter for a 30-0-6 chamber.  With the adapter you could use inexpensive 9mm surplus and shoot at a lower cost.  But even with the 9mm, I would not hot-rod it.

I don't know when they stopped making the Destroyer or how old they are but I would always use caution with these Mini-Mausers.  Otherwise, they are fun guns that will effectively handle 9mm Largo pressures and loads, and those are better than the 9mm Luger, so have fun but be careful.  This be Mikey.

Offline Henry Bowman

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38Super & 9X23 Differences-
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2003, 10:57:31 AM »
Mikie, the Super base measures .383 while the 9X23 runs .390, the Super is commonly called a straight wall while the 9X23 tapers much like a 9X19.
The Super loaded to +P is rated at 33K while the 9X23 runs in excess of 50Kcup.
The cartridge brass is designed thicker in the 9X23 to contain the extreme pressures, IF one wanted to duplicate 9X23 loads in the Super one should use the brass from Starline called 38 Super Comp that is designed for extreme pressures to avoid the "Super Face Syndrome" so common in the IPSC early years from competitors experimental Major load levels.
I also have a gun capable of firing both calibers but it is hard on the Super brass being stretched .007 further than design at each shot.
As for steel shooting, somewhere online is an article by John Pride detailing how he won four Bianchi Cups using an autoloader twice and and a revolver twice, try Google!

Offline Mikey

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38 Super vs 9x23
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2003, 04:28:45 AM »
Henry:  thanks for the clarification.  I knew the 9x23 was a true 9mm case design, not a straight walled case like the 38 Super but figured they were pretty much interchangeable.  I haven't yet had my Destroyer Carbine's bolt face opened up to take the 38 Super and doubt that I will, especially since there is a lot of 9x23 brass available now.  

But now, your response makes me wonder...if the 9x23 rim size is .390 and the 38 Super is only .383, can I interchange the two cases in my Destroyer Carbine if I re-size the 38 Supers through a 9mm die rather than the 38 Super die???????  If you know..  Thanks.  Mikey. :-D

Offline Henry Bowman

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Spanish Dstroyer Carbines
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2003, 03:52:23 PM »
Mikey you Sear Depressor you!
I spent an hour digging through a box of old gun rags thinking I something on that 9X23 conversion but alas it was just an old GunNews with a few pages on the destroyer in 9mm converted from 9mm Largo.
The article mentions firing Winchester +P+ 9mms with no problems but also questions whether the old gun would be safe with the much warmer loaded 9X23. (??)
I can't comment on the safety or strength of the Destroyer, note that the Largo is a tad longer than the 9X23 so an excess of headspace may occur.
Have you tried a Google search?

Offline Mikey

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Spanish Destroyer
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2003, 05:20:39 AM »
Henry:  thanks for the reply.  I haven't yet tried Google but think I just might try, if I can get through from my office website, which has restrictions.  

I wasn't aware that the 9mm largo was a tad longer than the 9x23.  I had assumed, mistakenly, that they were the same length - 23mm - now I know why it is so difficult to run some 9mm Largos through my 38 Super magazines, especially when the 9x23s work so well.  Something else I thought about after reading one of the last posts was - if I resize my 38 Super brass through a 9mm die, will they fit better in a 9mm Largo chamber or at least chamber better without having to do the bolt work?  But now the question arises as to 'why bother'..There is a great deal of 9mm Largo or 9x23 brass available to reload for the Destroyer for fun shooting.  These things make great garden guns and if you have an accurate one, they also work for larger pests.  

When I reloaded for mine, I basically used 38 Super low end loading data and cast bullets, up to 160 grains, and it was fun to plink with.  I would use the same data with 9x23 brass until I found a good accurate load.  

I've had my Destroyer for about 15 years now and the first batch of ammo I got was made before my late wife's date of birth - and, she was hotter than that stuff was.  I've picked up some CCI Blazer ammo with the aluminum cases but haven't played with that yet and am still looking for good quality ammo.  If I can't find it, I'll make it.  

I haven't seen any Destroyers advertized for a while.  I think if I see them again I'll snatch another up and have double the fun.  Thanks again.  Mikey.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: 38 Super vs. 9x23
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 02:50:19 AM »
Well boys, I was digging thru the bone pile for some other info and ran across this "OLD" thread and it brought back some memories of when my 9x23 lust began.
I hope you find the info interesting and it brings back some memories of folks that were younger then.
The information is timeless.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: 38Super & 9X23 Differences-
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 03:04:09 AM »
...
The Super loaded to +P is rated at 33K while the 9X23 runs in excess of 50Kcup.
...

Good info!  WHen I opened it up I didn't know the pressures, only had access to loading data WHICH WAS IDENTICAL!  (Lead bullets)   Don't think I've created a hazzard as it's not been remarked and no one else would know.  So for lead bullets I think I'm well within the pressure range for both and can use a variety of brass.  Accuracy?  It's never been a benchrest gun, never will be.   :D

Hmmm. Wonder if it would feed .38 spcl brass.....
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Offline HAMMERHEAD

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Re: 38 Super vs. 9x23
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 12:14:10 PM »
I reload the .38 Super quite a bit and chose it over the 9X23 for brass availability and Les Baer doesn't make a 9X23.
It's a great round for low recoil 1911 shooting, any .355" or .356" jacketed or plated bullet works just fine. I get super accuracy with Remington .355" 147 grain 'match' FMJ's or Hornady .356" 125 grain HAP bullets. Even Rainier plated .356" 130 grain round nose bullets shoot 2" at 25 yards. Titegroup is the most accurate target powder I've tried for light loads and I use HS-6 (a bit dirty) and SR 7625 (good stuff) for the hot loads that easily reach 1,300 fps (130 grain) with no pressure signs.
Here's a .38 Super website with some cartridge comparisons;
http://38super.net/index.html