357 mag

[colorado kid]

I am shooting a Thompson Contender in 357mag. The bullet i will be using is a 158gr either lead or jacketed. The question i have is i was reading Speer reloading manual #13 pg 526, it says that Vitha Vuori N110 and 2400 can be used without a magnum primer, is says that i can use regular primers. Is this true. The powders that i am is now using is either IMR 4227 or H110. thank you.

[Sweetwater]

Your reloading manuals state what they used when they developed the loads in their manual. That's why when you pick up a manual, it will state all the variables; case, bullet, primer, gun, etc as all the variables play a part in pressure development and velocity. They won't tell you something that isn't so unless it is a typo. As a general rule, powders lit with mag primers will pressure rise faster than when lit with standard primers. My records show that 2400 works well with either primer in a 357, though at different levels. I have no experience with the other powder you listed.
Back when I was loading 357's on a daily basis, I uses standard primers with Unique and mag primers with 2400 and W296. I will quote Winchester here, " always use a magnum primer with a heavy crimp when using W296. Do not reduce the powder charge". I would take heed of that warning. At first, I was a little leary of W296/H110 (same stuff today) but I come to be totally confident with it and it's my favorite for all my heavy magnum loads. 2400 is more versatile - possibly more accurate in an individual gun (not mine) and very dependable. Another thing I did was use 2400 with cast bullets and W296 with jacketed bullets. Read that somewhere back in the late 70's. Not anymore. W296 does fine with cast bullets.
The 357 is a blast. I just down have one anymore. Just inherited a 38Spl that will be with my wife for a while and then passed down the line. It was my Dad's. I'm deaf already from the 357's and had migrated a long time ago to 41's and 45's and ear muffs.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[tc scout]

colorado kid,
2400 does not require mag primers. I shoot alot of 2400 in my 357 with standard SP primers.
H110 and 296 do require mag primers.

Well, I guess Require was the wrong choice of words.
Only exception in my reloading of H110 is the 22 Hornet and 357 Max, which I use SR primers.

All other H110 loads get a mag SP primer.

[Dee]

Well actually I have shot a bunch of H110, and have never used magnum primers, nor does H110 require magnum primers. Now the 296 I have never loaded, but in 4 reloading manuals I use, I found nothing indicating that a magnum primer was required for W296.

[Sweetwater]

Well actually I have shot a bunch of H110, and have never used magnum primers, nor does H110 require magnum primers. Now the 296 I have never loaded, but in 4 reloading manuals I use, I found nothing indicating that a magnum primer was required for W296.

OK, you win. Not required is correct.  I looked it up and the wording is "strongly recommended" as opposed to "required" on page 32 of the 1989 Winchester 10th Edition Data Manual. There is a definite difference. Guess with my raising I read "strongly recommended" as "required". I will stand corrected. Yea, I will sit corrected!

Another cup of coffee....

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Dee]

Well actually I have shot a bunch of H110, and have never used magnum primers, nor does H110 require magnum primers. Now the 296 I have never loaded, but in 4 reloading manuals I use, I found nothing indicating that a magnum primer was required for W296.

OK, you win. Not required is correct.  I looked it up and the wording is "strongly recommended" as opposed to "required" on page 32 of the 1989 Winchester 10th Edition Data Manual. There is a definite difference. Guess with my raising I read "strongly recommended" as "required". I will stand corrected. Yea, I will sit corrected!

Another cup of coffee....

Regards,
Sweetwater

I ain't trying to win Jeff. I looked in my manuals before I typed. I thought I might have missed something in all these years. Also for rifle length barrels, I would suspect the mag primer would not be needed as the burn has a longer confinement time. The gases in for example a 308 Winchester: are still pushing the bullet a little beyond 3 feet past the muzzle, and the bullet at that point is still gaining velocity.
Though a different topic, if the bullet nose were to say, strike a glass window, within say 4 feet, the gases pushing the bullet from behind, would cause it to tumble.
Did you get the info on Navy Arms I sent you?

[Sweetwater]

Yes, I got it, and thanks, again.

As far as winning, just an expression. Honestly, I do enjoy guys like you keeping me from "going on memory" too much. Keeps pointing out my memory isn't what I think it is! LOL

I have used a Speer book for years, and the various powder mfgr's data manuals. Winchester "strongly recommended" magnum primers and Speer "always used" magnum primers even in their 357mag rifle data. I believe I translated that as being "required", though I do know my primer testing over the years tells me they all go bang, some better than others. So, I should have known better than to put "required" in there.

You guys are the best!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Dee]

I have Hornady, and Nosler manuals but they are for the odd powders and loads exclusive to them, but my main stay is the Lyman 46th and 48th Editions, with the 46th being my favorite. It has hotter loads for the three caliber that I now load for. I did the Speer manuals and all thru the years, but the Lymans are my favorite, and cover just about anything I want to do.
ONLY THREE! YEP! I sold everything except 3 calibers. Life is much simpler, and may get more so. I am tired of the velocity race. Been there, done that.

[Sweetwater]

I had a Hornady in the 70's and a Lyman #45. Lost them both in the divorce - gone, trashed. Just more of my 50% that didn't happen. I still have a Lyman #42 from 1960 and a Speer #5 from 1962 and the Speer #12 from 1995. I also have a few of "the Complete Reloading Manual for the whatever caliber" - they are photocopies of various loading manuals compiled for the individual and sister calibers. Like the 358W and 356W are in the same book. Almost side by side comparisons. Lots of barrel length differences. OAL differences. Some 356's are 358 OAL and some 358's are at 356 OAL.

To the OP: "Your manual states ....." There is nothing shown so far that contradicts your manual. It is what they used developing their manual. Proceed with confidence.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[buck460XVR]

Well actually I have shot a bunch of H110, and have never used magnum primers, nor does H110 require magnum primers. Now the 296 I have never loaded, but in 4 reloading manuals I use, I found nothing indicating that a magnum primer was required for W296.

OK, you win. Not required is correct.  I looked it up and the wording is "strongly recommended" as opposed to "required" on page 32 of the 1989 Winchester 10th Edition Data Manual. There is a definite difference. Guess with my raising I read "strongly recommended" as "required". I will stand corrected. Yea, I will sit corrected!

Another cup of coffee....

Regards,
Sweetwater

I have the latest Hornady, Speer, Lyman and Hodgdon manuals......altho they do not use magnum primers for all calibers with H110/W296, they ALL use small pistol magnum primers in their load recipes with H110/W296 in .357 mag with 158 jacketed bullets.. Are they required? Absolutely not......but then neither is following the rest of the load recipe, or following their other strong recommendation of not downloading it below listed minimum loads.  When asked, a e-mail reply from Hodgdon recommended against using standard primers with H110/W296 in .357mag........so,  I use magnum primers with .357 mag. The Lyman and Hornady manuals show using a magnum primer with 2400, but the Speer and the Alliant manual do not. I generally don't.


colorado kid ..........in long pipes and carbines, I've had better accuracy with IMR4227 and H110/W296 than with 2400. Good luck and let us know how things go.

[dpe.ahoy]

I have always used the mag primers with H 110 and do with LilGun as well.  Don't know where you are located, but here in Montana it gets pretty cold sometimes and I think the mag primers help light the ball powders better in real cold weather.  DP

[Dee]

Whether their necessary is really not the issue I think. If someone likes them, or thinks it enhances their loads, then it is their call. My take was only, that they are not mandatory. It's really a "what ever melts your butter" issue.

[colorado kid]

thanks for all of the information. I borrowed the 7th edition of the Hornady reloading manual, on pg 822 i don't see any where that it says anything about using standard primers. So i guess that i will use mag primers when i use H110 or IMR4227, and i will get me some 2400 and try it with standard primers, the standard primer I am using are wolf small pistol primers and i also have a few CCI small pistol primer left, I do have alot of the CCI mag primers left. I can use all of the info on wolf primers.

[Steve P]

I have 1000s (honestly) of 38 and 357s reloads at home.  (each of my competition guns have a minimum of (5) 100 round boxes of competition ammo.  plus plinkers.  plus vacuum packed stashed ammo.) NONE have magnum pistol primers.  I have loads with 4227, 296, 2400, Unique, Blue Dot, Red Dot, AA#9, Universal Clays, etc etc etc.  Some of my competition rounds do use a small rifle primer vs a pistol primer, but that is because of the load I am using calls for the rifle primer.  These are competition guns and are made to specs well exceeding SAAMI.  Most standard 357s do not need the harder primer cup of the rifle primer and 99% don't need a magnum pistol primer. 

I have used magnum primers in large volume rifle cases.  Never in a pistol case.

A buddy of mine just went from WLP primer in his 41 mag to a CCI Mag pistol primer because WLP primers were not available.  Worked back up to his load.  NO DIFFERENCE in velocity or SD. 

Read your reloading manuals.  I have many, PLUS there is lots of info on the internet.  Work up your loads based upon knowledge.  DO NOT GUESS.  DO NOT ASSUME.  Don't take just one manual as gospel.  Read several.

If you look around Graybeards site you will find links to reloading manuals for about every brand of powder out there. 

Just changing a primer in a pistol recipe can take a mild load to a WILD load!   WILD loads hurt people and damage guns. 

Learn learn learn, be safe safe safe, and then you can have FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN .


Steve