Black Powder Vs Smokeless FireArms

[David L]

I’d like to tell you about my experiences with black powder. Both good and bad. I owned a Colt Walker about 15 years ago. I really hated that gun, after 4 cylinders it would lock-up in the cylinder and shoot no more until it was cleaned, I got 3 extra cylinders out of it by keeping lard packed into the action after every cylinder shot but then again it would drip on my trigger finger and effect my aim. That open top and PIN in the cylinder made this gun a misery to shoot, I do NOT recommend buying this gun at any price unless you just wanna shoot a couple of cylinders and go home, a real pain to maintain. The Colt open tops were a design to contend with in its time but not a pistol you can shoot 50 or more times at the range, IT won’t do it, it WILL lock-up and the cylinder will hatfa be removed for cleaning. This gun will hit anything at 25 yards IF your aim is true depending on your load, it points like your finger and the balance is TO this day is unmatched, BAR NONE! It has a balance that seems to be very natural, I love the accuracy of this gun when in the heat-of-battle….IT cannot be beat in my own personal opinion. Do I shoot one? NO, it’s a weapon of the cival war and not worth my time. Good gun but it will only shoot so many times before it fails, NOT my kinda gun folks.

Now I have a 1858 Pietta Remington Repo in 44 cal. Nice gun!! It will shoot as many cylinders as you want, you can change out cylinders and keep shooting. Just be ready to have LARD all over your hands and gun, yeah, but it shoots, and shoots good. Slippery shooting my man, it’s a pain in the ole a-hole, BUT if you wanna shoot this type of gun the mess is worth it, right? WRONG! Every time you shoot a new cylinder you have to wade in LARD or GREESE, greese the cylinder pin, greese the cylinder, greese the action. EVERY TIME after the first cylinder OR that sucker will lock-up….I KNOW, I OWN ONE. Get this: I took my 1858 to the range, EVERYTIME I had to get my fingers greasy by doing every cylinder with GREASE, GREASE the pin GREASE the ACTION, OR it will lock-up and break the HAND or the HAND SPRING. I’ve broke 3 hand springs and chipped the frontal part of the hand. Notice that anyone that shoots this type of gun has a rag in their back pocket because the grease leaks down to their trigger finger.

I love an accurate gun but black powder cannot give me that, the fouling the load and accuracy is just ridiculous comapired to moden firearms. I can give a MUCH cleaner kill with a modern firearm, if you wanna shoot OLD guns then get ready to accept the accuracy, its NOTHING like a modern firearm.

Case in point:
225# whitetail deer dropped at 550 yards with 300 Winchester magnum, BP cannot do that…..NO BP Can do the that I’m aware of.

Taking the BP to the range and compairing it to a simple 45 auto is just a laugh, BP will NOT do the accuracy of modern firearms……PERIOD!!!

WHY wound a deer when you can kill him right on the spot! These folks that SAY a BP will kill out to 500 yards is just dreaming, no 50 or 64 can do it, they have the trajectory of a hand-thrown grapefruit…..

Final analysis of BP left me with sticking to my ole guns, which is a 45 auto and a 300 Winchester magnum, the BP is a thing of the past, if you like that accuracy then BP is for YOU…..NOT me……..



David L…..

[bubba15301]

if you dont like them dont shoot them  .as for accuracy  i have a ruger old army that will give your 45 a run for your money. as for your 550 yd shot on deer i think it is un sportsmanlike.

[ButlerFord45]

Black powder weapons are definatly not for everybody, if they were, we probably wouldn't have smokless powder now.  It seems to me to be more of an attitude and perspective.  My first BP revolver was a Walker, little over 20 years ago,  I don't rember ever having the problems you describe, maybe it was just "attitude and perspective".  My shooting buddy had an original '60 that I got to shoot, we had no problems with it or his '51 reproduction.  For less than $5 we could spend the entire day at the range and have a grand old time.  The reproductions I've had since then have been just like any other gun, some were great, some were lemons, but I still made lemon-ade, but I guess I would have to attribute a lot of that to "attitude and perspective".  I've lucked into a couple in my life that would shoot with anybody's modern weapon and I've had a couple that I couldn't hit a lake if I were standing on the bottom, but then I've had a couple of "High Tech" guns that shot patterns rather than groups.  I guess that's more "attitude and perspective".
It would seem to me that you don't posess the "attitude or perspective" to enjoy the challange of making black powder work (by the way: it does work) so I hope you enjoy your Modern Marvels as much as I enjoy Black Powder.

"225# whitetail deer dropped at 550 yards with 300 Winchester magnum, BP cannot do that…..NO BP Can do the that I’m aware of. "
There seems to be quite a bit that you're not aware of.

[howdy doody]

David, I know you know that all I shoot is black powder and subs, in fact mostly subs. Would you believe that I don't use crisco, lard, bore butter or any other kind of concoction in my remmies or my ROAs? Well, I don't. I shoot  60 rounds on the average per match with my pistolas and nary a bind or a problem.
You got to set em' up son. Box stock doesn't cut it. Clearance cylinders, bevel chambers, groove cylinder pins, use a powder that isn't so dirty. There is a lot you can do to improve the reliability and enjoyment, but you will never get that with out some set up.  :grin:

[Flint]

David,  although you had both the open top and the Remington, it's the open-top that will keep shooting longer because of the grooves and the larger diameter cylinder pin.  As Howdy says, you don't need all that grease.  Wonder Wads do a lot, and a bottle of Windex is  very handy.  A Ruger Old Army will shoot all day long without binding, as it has a decent gas ring step at the front of the cyinder like the SAA bushing.  I also shoot with subs, and they extend the shooting time.

[MOGorilla]

I have to second what Flint said.  I own both but am more of a colt clone owner, I have a 51 in .44, a 60 and a 51 in .36.  I also have a remmington.  I have on occasion put more than 200 rounds through any of these revolvers at one time.  I had the least amount of trouble/fouling with the colts, and that was shooting true black powder, I just started with the bp substitutes and I must say they are sweet.  I have only shot a Walker once and was not truly impressed.  Big gun, Big Boom, loading lever fell with every shot.  I think if I could convince my wife that I would expire without one, my next would be a 3rd model or 1st model Dragoon.  I put a light coat of bore butter on the cylinder pin on the colts and they spin all day.  On the Remmington, I have to swab out the cylinder's hole, grease it, grease the pin about every 4 cylinders.   I have to say I am an open top fan.

[Dakota Confederate]

Well, lemme see here, I got a Remington pocket pistol, 1849 Colt, a couple of 1860 Armies, a couple 1851 Navies, a Walker, both Pietta and Uberti Remington Armies, both Pietta and Uberti Remington Navies, a Lemat, a Rogers and Spencer, a Starr DA, and the wife has an 1861 Navy, all of them C&B.  I hever had much trouble with them binding up, even after shooting all day.  The trick I use is putting a wonder wad between the powder and ball.  This keeps everything lubed and working and also prevents chain fires from the ball end of the cylinder (though I firmly believe that chain fires don't come from the front of the cylinder but from the back if you don't have a cap over a loaded chamber).  No grease all over my hand and no puddle of melted lube in the bottom of my holsters on a hot day.  IMHO, wonder wads are the only way to go for shooting C&B.

[crossbow]

David,I have read some nonsense in my time but your post here beats all,I can only assume you are shooting factory seconds or something as the guns I own do not give the type of performance you speak of,and if you want to be sure of a clean kill on deer firing at 550 yds is not the way to go about it regardless of the type of gun.

[1860]

That settles it for me, I'm gonna dump mine A.S.A.P. and git me one of those newfangled 500+ yard deer guns and a semi auto pistol sos I can kill all the cripples.. yep... :roll:

1860

[Dan Chamberlain]

There seems to be a lot of things, friend David L is not aware of!  One does not enter into the realm of black powder to gain the same performance as smokeless.  That is a fool's errand!  It takes mere seconds to break a pistol down and wipe the cylinder and pin and reassemble.  Long range sessions are possible with little muss or fuss.  I hardly use any grease at all and certainly I have none dripping out of my pistols!  Short of a little dab on the cylinder pin before loading, and an occasional reapplication after a wipedown, you'd hardly know any grease was around!  Two squirrels fell to my .36 Navy the weekend before last, and I have a date with a rabbit or two Saturday!  

One does not enter into the realm of black powder to beat speed records, or compete in the steel challenge!  Consider the fact that 5 shots normally meant the end of the gun fight, and if you needed more, you drew the other pistol!  David, it's good you have decided this isn't for you.  But before you poison the water for anyone else, send them to this forum so they will hear voices of reason and experience.

Dan C

[howdy doody]

Dan C. well said pard.  :grin:

[MOGorilla]

Dan, an amen from the Choir too!  I have shot in 100 degree heat and never had any grease dripping.  When I said a light coat of bore butter on my cylinder pin, I meant light coat.  I use wads in the cylinder and have yet to had any fouling problems.  The only time I have had to disassemble the revolver while shooting involved a cap problem.  My fondness of all things past brought me to this sport, it is the same reason I have 10 swords in my house, inculding an original 11 century b.c bronze sword (my 10th anniversary present from my wife).  The only modern firearms I own, I inherited from my father.  There are problems that can come from shooting blackpowder. but none have sent me scurrying from the sport.  A little research and asking questions can solve many if not all of those.  I have a friend who target shoots pistols and loves western movies.  We meet periodically to shoot our Henry rifles.  I being my c&B revolvers and he brings his 45 acp.  He shoots mine, I shoot his.  I always figured I would get him hooked, but its not his thing.  He likes them, but things they take too much time as opposed to loading the ACP.  Most of my friends are that way, if I load it and hand it to them, they are more than happy to fire away, but really don't wish to own one, yet.  This sport is not for everyone, but once the hook is set, away you go.

[HWooldridge]

Sounds like Dave just wanted to get everyone fired up and looks like he succeeded...plus he hasn't responded to any of the replies.

A shooting acquaintance of mine had a replica Walker back in the late 70's that was a very poorly fitted pistol.  I cannot remember the importer but the gun had a gray finish, a lot of cheap roll engraving all over it and was quite expensive.  The poor guy decided he wanted to get into BP so spent the most money he could on this clunker without doing any research.  At the same time, I owned an 1858 Remington replica from Dixie.  The Walker was reliable but hard to shoot offhand and the loading lever dropped with each shot.  We finally made a loop of baling wire to secure it.  The 1858 was a superb gun - very reliable and accurate.  My buddy finally got so fed up with his pistol that he literally threw it from a bridge into the Trinity River and never shot BP again.  I had a lot of fun with mine and now own several BP pistols and rifles.  Sometimes the first experience creates the lasting impression.

[Dakota Confederate]

How much powder was he using in that Walker?  I found that if I only load it was about 40 grains of 2F, I don't have the problem of dropping the loading lever.  Get much about 45 and she'll drop every time.  I've got a buddy of mine that loads his up with as much powder it can take...and wonders why the wedge is always getting battered.  :roll: Down load them a little and you got a revolver that won't drop the lever and will hold up over time.

[HWooldridge]

I don't recall the powder charge since it was over 30 years ago but I do recall he used a round ball and was seating it just below the chamber mouth.  How much will a Walker hold with a round pill?

[Dakota Confederate]

Oh, I think the guy I know tries to stuff in 70 grains of 3f and then brags about how much he can cram in there. :shock:  Wouldn't care to buy a gun from that guy.

[J.W.Neely]

My buddy finally got so fed up with his pistol that he literally threw it from a bridge into the Trinity River and never shot BP again

So that explains that Walker that landed in my boat!

[howdy doody]

Some things I will never understand I guess. :?

[Cuts Crooked]

550 yards with a 300 Wiinchester huh? Somehow that fails to impress me!

Now you wanna talk huntin!?! How's this: http://www.cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=b0076f3a-7d35-438a-1b95-607a55d37e0a&size=

Yeah look close at that revolver, bud! And while yer lookin check out the deer..right between the eye and the ear! THAT is what hunting is all about. And doing it with a Cap & Ball is challanging, unlike sniping a deer with an over powered cannon at fiftyleben yards. Sheesh! :roll:

[Will52100]

Good shot Cuts Crooked!

I curently have 4 capn' ball revolvers and they get more of a work out than any of my autos or even Vaquaros.

I've never owned a Reminton type revolver, but the colts I have little or no troble out of.  The Pieta's I almost always from the box fit and refinish the grip, and polish a few thousands off the cylinder face and stone the action.  The Ubertia I had no need to work on.  

I run around a hundred rounds through them at a time with no binding.  The only thing I do is out of the box I tear them down completely and scurb with hot water and Dawn dish detergent and dry them out.  After I wipe every part down with Natural Lube 1000 and put a goodly amount in the action.  Clean up is a snap, just break down barrel and grip, wash out cylinder and barrel, run patches through barrel and wipe frame down.  Dry everything out and wipe down with Natural Lube again.  Once in a while I'll tear the action down to clean, but so far havent' noticed any corosion or binding.  

As for the 500+ yard shot, it is posible with black powder, you just have to be a good shot and know how to judge distance.  The old sharps have taken buffalo at longer ranges than that.  For most practicle aplications most game is taken at less than 300 yards, at least where I live.

[Cuts Crooked]

Thanx Will!

It's been a few years since I took that lil buck, but I'm as proud of that one as any I've ever taken! I played hide and seek with him for four days before I got a shot I felt confident with. Got him with a brass framed "Reb model" loaded with 28 grains of 3F under a round ball. That particular gun, although generally considered to be less than desirable, was one of the most accurate I've ever shot. It has been retired to a place of honor on the wall and others, of higher quality (and cost :shock: ) have taken it's place.

I've become a Remington NUT!  :-D  I currently own a pair of 58s that I plan to use next season for cowboy shootin, possibly with Kirst Conversions in them. For the past couple of years I've been shooting 75 Remmies in .45 Colt, loaded with BP. I also have a new Rollingblock in 45-70 that will be used with BP exclusively! If I could afford a Remington-Keene to go with them, I'd be in Hog Heaven!

With the 75s I find that I can run through an entire match without cleaning fouling off the cylinder face/pins. I expect the 58s to do the same, perhaps a drop of ballistol on the pin between stages, but no difference otherwise!