Triple 7 issues

[Quadzillabill]

I've been watching with interest as many shooters have moved to triple 7.  I'd like to use it myself, but I've heard and seen first hand a problem that I have not experienced with clean shot or pyrodex.

A guy at the range bought a brand new omega, and put his first two shots 1" high at 50 yards.  Super.  He was a big guy (300 lbs+) but was unable to get hit powerbelt bullets to seat on the pellets when he loaded the third shot.  FINALLY after really bearing down for a few minutes, he was able to get it in.  After that shot he pulled the breech plug to clean the gun.  

The area of the chamber was completely fouled - and he couldn't get it completely clean even after several swab and brushing attempts.  After discussing this with the range employees, they mentioned that they are seeing fouling like this after only a single shot in some cases.  Very hard to load it.

What's your experience with 777?  Does it really need cleanup after a SINGLE shot?

[J.Solo]

Quadzillabill:

I'm using 90 grains of loose, FFG, Triple Seven and a saboted 240-250 grain Hornady XTP hollow point with Thompson RED sabots out of my Remington Stainless ML.  I found that I have to "spit patch" and lub patch between every shot in order to prevent hard seating of proceeding rounds.

It seems that Tripple 7 leaves a hardened dry residue in the barrel and cakeing in/around the breach plug after only one shot. I have shot up to 50 rounds at the range without any seating problems using the double patch cleaning method between shots. I have also made up a special three compartment change purse to hold the two types pf patches and 209 primers for reloading in the field.

When I get home for a complete cleaning I notice a rough area just ahead of the powder colum in the barrel when running cleaning patches and brush down the bore and a lot of cakeing in the end of the Breach plug. A thorough cleaning with soapy patches and wire brush gets rid of all the residue in the barrel and on the breach plug.

I don't remember the seating of subsequent rounds being this difficult when I was using American Pioneer, loose, FFG powder. I will try the American Pioneer again after hunting season to check for sure.

I have never used the pellets of either brand so I can't comment on those at this time.

I am also going to try a greased felt wad on top of the Tripple Seven load prior to inserting the saboted bullet to see if that makes any difference between each shot.

I'm concerned about this issue with Triple Seven because I also purchased some in loose FFFG to try in my RUGER Old Army. Of course I will be using a greased felt wad on top of the 6 charges in this gun. I hope I don't run into the same problem as I have experienced with triple Seven, FFG in the Rifle.

I hope this information helps - J.Solo

[Triple Se7en]

How much powder was this guy using? Was it loose or pellets? Was his barrel dry or seasoned? Does he have the flat-faced breechplug or the new concave breechplug? Does he use a hot primer or a cooler one?

I also own an Omega & have no trouble loading (3) Powerbelts with 110 grains loose (130 Pyrodex equivalent).

I swab every 2nd shot with sabots.. every 3rd with conicals/Powerbelts. My barrel is "completely" dry upon loading ... I remove storing oils with alky.  I use the cool CCI 209 primers & my breechplug is the new-concave.... no problemoe.

[Quadzillabill]

How much powder was this guy using? Was it loose or pellets? Was his barrel dry or seasoned? Does he have the flat-faced breechplug or the new concave breechplug? Does he use a hot primer or a cooler one?

I also own an Omega & have no trouble loading (3) Powerbelts with 110 grains loose (130 Pyrodex equivalent).

I swab every 2nd shot with sabots.. every 3rd with conicals/Powerbelts. My barrel is "completely" dry upon loading ... I remove storing oils with alky.  I use the cool CCI 209 primers & my breechplug is the new-concave.... no problemoe.

He was using 2 777 pellets in a new gun with the concave breechplug.  No idea on the primer - but how would that effect the fouling?

I would have written the issue off if I hadn't heard of similar problems from the range employee and a shop that I visited on subsequent days.  I didn't bring it up - they did - as I was discussing load development and the advantages/disadvantages of 777.

This is too many stories for it to be coincidence.

[Triple Se7en]

"This is too many stories for it to be coincidence."
=========================================

Quadz
 
What was this guy swabbing/cleaning his bore with? Did he use a jag or brush? Less than seven water-wettened patches will thoroughly clean that barrel of powder fouling.  The only explanation I can think of right now is that "this guy" was using seven dry patches to swab & was using the wrong Powerbelts... meaning the overbore Knight Powerbelt 260s.

Unless we can get this guy on this thread, I'm through with this topic because 2nd hand news ain't firsthand news from the real source. If you prefer not to wet-swab after every 2nd shot, then American Pioneer, Pyrodex or real Black should be your next powder.

[Quadzillabill]

"This is too many stories for it to be coincidence."
=========================================

Quadz
 
What was this guy swabbing/cleaning his bore with? Did he use a jag or brush? Less than seven water-wettened patches will thoroughly clean that barrel of powder fouling.  The only explanation I can think of right now is that "this guy" was using seven dry patches to swab & was using the wrong Powerbelts... meaning the overbore Knight Powerbelt 260s.

Unless we can get this guy on this thread, I'm through with this topic because 2nd hand news ain't firsthand news from the real source. If you prefer not to wet-swab after every 2nd shot, then American Pioneer, Pyrodex or real Black should be your next powder.

Well, I guess you can be through with the topic is you want. :roll:

I watched/helped him clean the gun once he had the breech plug out.  He alternated using water soaked patches and his brush.  It did come pretty clean, but I looked down the barrel before he started and it was very dirty with that area of fouling near the chamber.  The range employee, the gun owner and I all took turns pushing the brush through the barrel and discussed the feeling of 'roughness' in the are that was dirty.

The powerbelt bullets were the hollow point 50 caliber 295 grain copper plated bullet that can be seen here:  

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/prod.htm#2

I really WANT to use the 777 for its ease of cleanup - but you're right - something else might be better if I don't want to clean up after two shots - or worse yet - after one shot.

I'll stick by my statement above - and not because I have anything against 777.

[RandyWakeman]

What's your experience with 777?  Does it really need cleanup after a SINGLE shot?

Not in testing with 30 different muzzleloaders.

[Quadzillabill]

What's your experience with 777?  Does it really need cleanup after a SINGLE shot?

Not in testing with 30 different muzzleloaders.

Thanks Randy,

Since this was a factory new gun - and I doubt it was cleaned before firing - do you think that might have something to do with it?

What's your own cleaning/swabbing schedule when using T7?

Thanks, Q

[RandyWakeman]

Since this was a factory new gun - and I doubt it was cleaned before firing - do you think that might have something to do with it?

What's your own cleaning/swabbing schedule when using T7?

Thanks, Q

If it wasn't cleaned / lubed before firing, then he was very lucky to get the breechplug out.

I just use hot water on my muzzleloaders, finishing with Breakfree CLP.

After a fouling shot, it is a spit-patch between shots with sabots, that's it. With Powerbelts, depending on gun, I usually get 20 - 25 shots in before swabbing is necessary.

With a gun like the White 98 and slip fit conicals, you never have to swab at all.

[Triple Se7en]

That sounds like the problem Quadz.... he didn't remove the packing grease. He's lucky the rifle came with a greased breechplug because it would of seized-up real tight.

Take Care
... Joe...

[longwinters]

I keep saying . . . use Goex cleanshot and you will have NONE OF THESE PROBLEMS.  My buddy and I have been using it for 2 years and there are no crud ring problems (and you can shoot all day with no clean up).  

long

[longwinters]

See the post on "cleaning" on the Encore forum.

long

[longwinters]

I have been corrected.  Cleanshot (that I use) is made by American Pioneer not Goex.  Humble apologies.  Thanks Quad. :-)

long

[Grump]

I have noticed the 777 crudring problem in my rifles(.50 GPR, .54 sporterized Hawken,.32 GM barrel.I also witnessed the same loading problems with powerbelt bullets and a.45 encore Last weekend. My experience has been to keep your loads smaller. I believe they recomend you reduce your load 15% by volume. I usually shoot mainly PRB loads using 777 and swab after every shot. Once down and back witha spit patch. I swab mainly to keep the fowling in my barrel consistant.I really like 777 and prefer it to everything I have tried so far. The crudring thing is very manageable in my opinion. If you shoot a small bore (.32) it doesnt foul like Goex BP. BP and 777 are about the same price in my area. My goal is to buy one pound of everything and try it out. It wont go to waste,I always need powder for the smoke ball mortar! :bye:

[Super Rat]

In revolvers I think 777 shoots very well and very clean. In your Ruger Old Army it should be pretty ideal. It's the best thing I've found so far for my Remington Navy .36.

I discovered that 777 compresses quite a bit, so not only is it hotter, but you can get much more of it in a revolver cylinder for a very powerful load.

In the Ruger, or my Remingtons, this is not an issue, but I also "discovered" that in the open top Colts a full load of 777 is just a bit too much. It will batter the wedge and wedge slot and definately drop the loading lever. "Don't ask me how I know this", to quote a friend of mine.