A lost deer

[jschance]

They say it happens to every hunter, but before this season, it had never happened to me.

Opening morning I had a spike buck walk underneath my stand shortly after daylight and stop about 15 yards out from the stand.  I decided to take the shot and fired a 20 gauge slug into him using my typical lower chest, just behind the shoulder aiming point.

He took off like a scared rabbit, bounded across the clearing, through a patch of woods, down an embankment across a stream (8-10' wide) up the other bank and into the woods.  I sat in my stand for about 30 minutes then got down to track him down.   I found the initial impact point, where it was marked with blood and some white hair.   I tracked him as far as the stream (pretty good blood trail at this point) and was going to cross into the other woods when gunfire from the woods made me decide to wait until later in the day to prevent ruining someone elses hunt (or getting shot at even while wearing blaze orange).  

At about 9 AM I decided it had quieted down enough to not get shot so I crossed the stream and began tracking him.  I ended up spending over two hours tracking him before I finally lost any indication of a trail after he had jumped over another stream and entered a heavily overgrown area bordering a large swamp in the area.  We found one small drop of watery blood on the far side of the stream, and then were unable to find anything else, even with extensive searching.

This is the first time I've ever not been able to retrieve a deer I've shot, and it's weighing heavily on my mind.  The only thing I've been able to figure out is that with the deer as close to my stand as it was, and the height of the stand (approx. 15' up), the angle of the shot was steep enough and my aiming point was low enough that the slug never hit anything vital as it went through (as indicated by the white hair).

[pa ridge-runner]

Hi JS,
  I agree with your assumption  that the angle of your shot gave you little room for error.I have never shot a deer with a shotgun before so dont know much about thier killing power.I do know that when a deer is wounded they ALWAYS head for water.Water,especially cold water does wonders to stop bleeding.Its possible that the deer had plenty of time to stop the flow of blood.If you didnt hit vitals,the deer has a chance of living.Possibly your slug hit bone.If so the slug will deflect and not allow penetration.I have lost deer on rainy wet days when tracking can be most difficult.If your wounded deer found water,the wound would most likely coagulate and the flow would decrease leaving very little to track.
What I would do if I were you is to go back to the last spot you saw sign of the deer and make circles wider and wider.It may take awhile but is probably your only chance of finding it.Hope this helps,GOOD LUCK.PARR

[willis5]

I lost a doe this year for the first time when it started raining. I hit her a little high and forward. I found my arrow broken off only showing about 4 inches of penetration. I think it hit bone, stuck and broke. I looked for 2 days after the night I shot it... I was sick and I still am. that was the first time... I don't even want to talk about it... It was the only deer that I hit this year...

[Graybeard]

This one should teach you a valuable lesson. It isn't always possible or desireable to have the bullet enter from any one spot on the deer's body. What you should ALWAYS strive for is to place the bullet so the path it takes is thru the vitals meaning heart/lungs. Your height about the animal or it above you and the angle the body is to you all figure into this.

This try to picture the heart/lungs from the shot angle you have and place the bullet so it's path will be thru this area. I do most of my hunting from a treestand and often have close shots as I usually hunt thick stuff. This means placing the shot higher in the body than I would if on the ground with them so the exit is lower and the bullet at the mid point of it's path thru the deer's chest is near center of lungs.

GB

[jschance]

PA ridge runner,

This was the first time I'd ever shot one with a shotgun myself.  I am usually a handgun hunter (45-70 Contender), but with the birth of my second child this summer, I haven't had time to practice with it, so I was using the shotgun thinking I was taking the safe route.

We did that (circle and look) and more.  Where we lost the trail is the edge of thick overgrown brush (briars, thickets and such) and swampy ground.  There were at least 6 or seven trails leading into this area, and we pushed into these areas as far as we could looking for any signs with no luck.  We also did as much 'casting' as we could, just trying to find any indication which was it went, again with no luck.  I was not wanting to give this deer up.  I'm of the mindset that once you shoot it, it's your responsibility.

Graybeard,  Yep, lesson learned.  I was out again this week and by sitting in the stand and visualizing where the deer was standing (I had stuck a branch into the ground where I had found the sign on Saturday) I realized that I was shooting down at about a 45 degree angle.  I should have been shooting much closer to the spine to make a good shot.

Now, if I could just grow a third leg to kick myself with, I'd be doing pretty good.

[willis5]

we have a learning curve, all of us. congrats on learning from it.

[Myk]

White hair at that angle, you didn't kill him. With him running far without stopping I doubt if you did more than give him a flesh wound.

What kind of slug? Unless you are using a Remington Copper Solid you should stick with almost the same shots you'd take with a bow. You can take head, neck and spine shots if you are close enough and accurate enough. But stay away from trying to go through shoulder bones with lead. I tried to go through shoulder with a lead slug and it totally disintigrated on the bone. Lucky for me it was an attached wad type, the screw went in and got the heart. That's when I switched to the copper solids.
My friend has had the all lead slugs stop on a rib and travel skin with a broadside shot.

Even the sabot'ed rounds are not that accurate. The sabots are prone to wind and twig deflection terribly before 30 yards. Last year's deer was @15yds, quartering towards. It should've went straight through heart/lungs but because the slug was still in the sabot when it hit the angle changed the direction the slug left the sabot and it came out the front of the chest.

Also a 20ga isn't much. Go with a 12ga unless you can't handle the recoil. Unless you get a spine shot or are totally sure of the hit take all three, four or five if you can pump enough into the gun in time. If you must stick with the 20ga definitely get the Copper Solids.

I'm stuck in a state that doesn't allow rifles. I've never lost one with a slug but I've come close. I know a lot of people who have drawn blood but didn't recover the deer.

Frankly, I think shotguns slugs should not be required anywhere for deer. They are not accurate enough but people keep on stretching their shots out beyond its capabilities. They recoil too much making people inaccurate with them. They are not fun to shoot so people don't practice with them. The lead slugs are too wimpy and the sabot'ed rounds are too touchy. The only places slugs should be used is around housing developments.

[jschance]

Myk,

They were the copper solids and in my gun, they're grouping under 2" at 100 yards.

I was using the 20 gauge because I wanted a lightweight rifled slug gun, and I put together a NEF Tracker II that I drilled and tapped for a scope.  I used the 20 gauge because it had sufficient chamber wall thickness to drill and tap for the scope mount.  

I am recoil sensitive, as evidenced by the fact that I only use a .45-70 Contender most of the time (favorite load, 53 grains 3031 behind a 300 grain jhp). :wink:

Next year, I'm planning on being able to use the Contender again.

[Myk]

If you had hit it solid in the body with copper solids there would've been a lot of blood and it wouldn't have gone too far.
I'm guessing since it's a new gun that it's also the new version of the slugs. Those leave a huge exit hole. And at the speed the 20's are going it would've opened up that close.
(I have the old version where the petals break off, those kill with even not so great shots, all it takes is one petal to find the right place.)

I'm guessing that even with a 20ga and a copper solid you should be able to go through a lot. Another friend uses 12ga 2 3/4" CS and sent one crashing through trees by me (idiot wasn't supposed to shoot that direction) after he hit spine. With the 3" 12ga CS I hit spine, split shoulder blade the hard way, went through all the inards, the base of the slug ended up stopping in the kneecap.

Judging by that I'd say as long as the shot isn't too close like my deer last year, you could drill through any bone on a deer with a 20ga and CS's and hit what's on the other side.

Mine shoots targets good, but get them out in the field and if you hit anything before the sabot separates it's anyone's guess where it goes. We've both missed easy shots because of one tiny twig getting in the way.

Come and shoot my Mossberg 500 w/plastic stock and these 3" CS's, you won't want to shoot another lightweight slug gun for a long time
My scope is fuzzy but I'm not going to sight in a new one until it totally goes out or I run out of this batch of slugs. And hopefully that will be never with our new rule on allowing pistols on deer.

[freddogs]

It's an unfortunate thing to happen to you. I think you are right in your assessment and shot low, The deer will probably recover. I've shot about 20 deer with slugs and I know they are not very powerful. I did have one slug deflected by a rib and it got back up and I had to shoot it again. However, even a 20 guage puts a big hole in a deer. You know what went wrong and you won't make that mistake again, There's nothing wrong with your rig and you don't need a 12 guage. :roll:

[Myk]

Sorry to disagree but you said it yourself. Slugs are weak. When you are trying to overcome weakness you find a place to add strength.
Using CS as the example a 12ga increases the strength over a 20ga in two places. Slug diameter and slug weight. A different brand may give you diameter and velocity. CS themselves overcome the penetration problems of lead slugs.

A 20ga barrel diameter is barely over what my CS slug diameter is. Add a sabot and the 20ga is shooting some pretty small stuff when you take into account how slow they are moving. The diameter of the hollow point in my old style CS slug is almost the size of the whole 20ga CS slug.

Here in the land of statewide enforced slug guns I don't know of anyone who shoots 20ga on deer. I know there are some but I don't know them. Every kid I've known who's started deer hunting starts out with a 12ga. If they can't handle a slug in a 12ga they can't handle hunting yet.  
When you are going slow the concept is that bigger holes are better. A 20 will kill a deer but a 12 will do it better same as with a 22LR and a .243. The result is lessening the chance of a lost deer.
If a 12ga will stop on a rib a 20ga will be more likely to stop.

[Tony D]

I wouldn't discount a 20 gauge slug for deer.  Winchester is loading the 45 cal 260 gr Partition Gold at around 1900 fps in the 20 gauge - the equivalent of a 45-70 or a 454 Casull!

[BH]

Myk,

Sorry, but it is obvious to me that you have no first hand experience with 20 ga. slugs on deer or you would not be making the comments you are making.  Within the effective range of any shotgun (determined mostly by slug tragectory and accuracy) the 20 ga. is, in fact, a quite capable deer round.  If you value a lighter, quicker gun with less recoil, I would argue the 20 is supperior to the 12.  Now, if we're talking about which gauge will most effectively blow stumps out of the ground, the 12 will win hands down but that's not what were talking about.  As Tony pointed out, 45-70 type performance is quite sufficient for whittails IMHO and the 20 is much nicer to work with on that all important bench work.

Bob

[grouper sandwich]

I'm confused here.  Why can't you use rifles?  Why are they banned? :?

[BH]

Grouper,

A number of states are concerned about the fact that rifle bullets carry further than shotgun slugs and around high population areas are more likely to injure/kill someone in the event of an errant shot.  Ironically, if I chose to, I could use any centerfire rifle in my safe to shoot squirrels out of a tree.  I can also legally use a 375Win, 45-70 or 444 Marlin (among others) out of my 14" pistol to take deer during the shotgun season although I've choosen to use the 357 Max when I hunt by myself.  In addition, with the advent of the higher velocity sabots available for shotguns, the difference in the carry distance for rifles and shotguns is getting pretty narrow.  However, that is the law in a number of states (mine, Iowa, included).

So, many of the people on here with shotgun questions are trying to make the best out of a marginal situation but I'll have to admit that the shotgun is extremely effective within its range limitations.  Low/no magnification scopes/redots, or no optics at all, combined with an inherantly quick handling shotgun make for a very good short range whitetail brush gun.  But, you won't be parking yourself on a ridge and covering 300 yards in all directions.

Unfortunately, I think the shotgun only laws have actually spawned much of the large hunting party drive hunts that take place around here which are very dangerous in my mind.  Just envision 10 to 15 guys driving full sections (or more) to about 5 to 10 standers and you'll get the idea.

Bob

[Myk]

You are right, BH. I don't have experience shooting 20ga slugs. I do have plenty of experience shooting 12ga slugs and I know they don't always do the job, especially when you are talking about lead slugs.
It would stand to reason that if a 12ga can't do the job some of the time that a 20ga won't do the job more of the time.

Besides the larger diameter, the 12ga slugs can have twice the weight and can carry the same or better velocity.

The 12ga lead slug my friend had stop on a rib was at about 25yds. The 12ga lead slug I had disintigrate on shoulder was at 30yds. So what is this extremely effective shotgun range, 10yds?

Sabots are absolutly crappy brush rounds if the brush is under 30yds. According to the NRA's tests there is no such thing as a good brush round. Brush can cause a miss or even worse, a wounding with any round.

Would it make you feel better if I added an "IMO"?
IMO if you are going to hunt deer you owe it to the game to be more worried about putting them down quickly than you are about bruising your shoulder. But I guess that's just me. If we could I wouldn't use my .223 even though it's fully capable. I plan on getting a .375win rather than use my .357. Even though I carried the .357 and the buck was well within pistol range this year I used the 12ga because at that range it would do the job better.

[BH]

Myk,

I may have missled you on my comment about the shotgun being a good "brush gun".  My intent was to point out it was good in heavy brush where open shots are quick and fleeting.  You are absolutelty correct in that no bullet performs well "through" brush".

That aside, you seem to have had considerably worse experiences with shotgun slugs than I have witnessed.  I've never seen a shotgun slug failure on open shots (12 or 20, sabot or foster) as you describe.

I ment no disrespect in my earlier responce.  I've just seen the 20ga perform in the field for many years (in my hands and others) and know it to be very effective on whitetails.  I couldn't help but notice that you consider the .375 Win a capable deer round in a pistol (and I agree) but you might take a look at how that compares to a 20ga. 260 gr. Win Partition Gold at 1900fps.

Bob

[Frog123]

Some good points are brought up along with some bad ones. Slug guns like any other weapon out there are accurate as long as they are properly matched with the appropriate ammuntion. Slug ammo is again not much different than other ammo meaning there is high quality manufactured ammunition and there is low quality ammo not well suited for big game but there is a differance between slug types. Foster slugs are generaly undersized and made from a softer alloy as manufacturers realize the potential for consumers to fire them from a tight choked gun minimizing the risk of barrel damage. At one time the foster was the reigning slug as it is still the only one that I know of that is loaded in the .410 shotgun. It's application is still one of debate. I'm sure that alot  of the slugs stigma today has risen from the foster slugs of the past.

     The hunter armed with a shotgun can hold a distinctive advantage over a rifle toting hunter. A hunter may only possess one shotgun and perhaps a set of barrels suited for a multitude of game. What chance does a deer have by darting by a hunter armed with the same gun that he routinely uses for bowling over bunnies or dropping ducks and pheasants?

    Is any one brand or type of slug a "magical bullet" No, perhaps slug ammo is now where factory rifle ammo was twenty years ago. A copper slug still must be placed in the vitals. Remington has made improvements over the original design and yes, they too will deflect just the same as any other round. Slug technology continues to improve, although I feel muzzleloaders and muzzleloader projectiles have advanced ten fold as compared to slug guns, but don't sell the 20 out just yet. I expect big things out of the 20 in the future. It has a higher muzzle velocity, flatter trajectory and more than adequate knock down power. The winchester 20 matched with the gold partition has excellent potential. Slug guns will continue to improve out of necessity, urban areas will continue to expand and hunting areas will become more crowded.

Do I feel handicapped when I'm toting a slug gun. Absolutely not. My bow is not my pistol, my pistol isn't my muzzleloader, my muzzleloader is not my shot gun and my shot gun is definately not my rifle. Each weapon has limitations that must be adhered to for maximum efficiency. Mine's right at 120 yds with a Mossberg 835 with a 24" ported and cantlevered barrel with a 4x scope shooting Winchester 3" BRI 1oz sabots. Are there considerations? Yes, recoil is a good one. I replaced the scope on my slug gun last week with a 4x Leupold that I traded for. Seven shots and a nice bruise later the gun is sited in. Accuracy is outstanding, only because I have taken a beating in the past by sampling different brands and sizes to find out what worked. I have gone as far as to shoot slugs into wet newspapers to find out what kind of penetration and expansion I could expect. A good smooth trigger would help as much as anything as I have yet to find a factory gun with a crisp trigger pull.  Optics can make a dramatic difference in group size but as mentioned above should be of quality, the recoil from a slug gun can destroy a scope, not to mention scope slippage while in the rings, these things must be taken into consideration for maximum benifit.

[BH]

Good points Frog!