First Shot Fliers

[JDNC]

Veral,

I know this has been worn out over the years but I couldn't resist asking.  I've been pushing a 30 cal. 170-LFN with your blue lube at about 2400fps with groups (5 rnd) hovering around 1" in a warm barrel. Temps outside around 85-90*. Most of the time I get the dreaded flier at about 1 O'Clock 3/4" from POA with a cold "clean" barrel.  I have tried leaving the barrel fouled with lube and generally don't get the flier if the barrel is a little warm, say 10 or 15 minutes between groups.  But if I let the barrel cool completely out of direct sunlight say inside my house, I still will get the first shot flier but not as bad as out of a clean barrel.  I ordered some of your blue-soft last year hoping that a softer lube might help,  as it might not harden as much when cooling but have not tried it yet. 

My question is, over the years have you picked up any tricks as to barrel prep between groups in a cold barrel such as dry patching, light oil on a patch, etc., ?

Always scratching my head,
JD

[Veral]

  You've brought up a very common problem for rifle shooters, but I haven't heard of handgun shooters ever having the problem.
 
  It is caused by the lubes 'lubrocity' changing with temperature, and it pretty much happens when the lube being used isn't being worked hard enough. (2400 fps with hard bullets in a high quality rifle is idle speed for LBT lube.  Well, not quite an idle but it will handle at least 2600 fps in most good barrels and up to 2900 fps with a good bullet design, and ambient temps below 100 deg F)
 
   Try filling less lube grooves with the loads you are using, if the bullet has several grooves.  Or up the speed if it will shoot accurately with more power and the barrel doesn't develop a bulge or some other serious complaint show up, like blown primer, locked bolt etc.  (I'm funnin you here!  Watch pressures as you develop up!)

  Most complaints of this problem are with plainbase bullets, and normally when shot at low speeds for them even.  I like to make pb rifle bullets with several small grooves, if the bullet is long, so the amount of lube can be adjusted, and also, because the more grooves a bullet has the less lead is rubbing the barrel.

  I believe quite a few readers would like to hear your comments after trying my suggestions above.

[Terbltim]

That sounds like we are knocking on the door of the subject of "excess-lubrication" of the bullet.
You (Veral) mentioned that in your book and it always left me wondering how a bullet could be over-lubricated.
I remember asking you about it some time ago and I think I was able to grasp the explanation.
I'm not using cast bullets in my rifles yet but I'm gearing up to hit it hard in the coming year.
I will indeed be interested to read the results if JDNC goes to the effort.

[Sweetwater]

Haven't noticed the first shot flier syndrome as long as I don't over clean during hunting season. I've hovered at 2300fps with my 32WSpl and my own lube on a Lyman 183gr cast bullet. Just started using my batch of LBT soft and find hitting 2500fps with a 220gr in my 356W is no stretch at all! Sooo, here we go on a velocity search.. and no, I do not keep a cleaning rod handy. Just keep sending 'em downrange!

[JDNC]

I have pushed this bullet (hardened WW 30Bhn) to 2650 fps without leading, just a little sign on the driving side of the lands with fair accuracy (this gun will shoot).  This was a max load using IMR3031.  I did use all the lube grooves as I was working up a max load and would rather be safe than sorry as far as leading goes.  I did not try using less lube on the bullet and thought I might try the soft lube and experiment with a dry or oiled patch between groups.  I will try less lube this summer when it warms up and also I would like to try a ball powder (H335). I might also add..Veral is right I have a slick smooth barrel!  It would be pretty boring anyway I guess.. if we all figured out everything and we all could shoot one hole groups! Always scratching my head wondering how, why and what!  Cast lead bullets make copper jacketed bullets so boring.  Been there, done that!

JD

[Veral]

  When you are pushing the upper end of accurate velocity, one can expect more variables than when keeping velocity to a level where consistent performance is obtained.  Also, in my experiance, 3031 is one of the poorest powders I've used for getting top velocity.  I have no idea why, but the considerable faster burning 4198 has always delivered at least as high and normally higher accurate velocity, with freedom from leading than 3031.  I've had excellent results with the stick powders 4064 and 4198, both brands and 4350, while  ball powders have shined brightest in 308 and smaller cases.
  Try Win 760 rather than 335 as 760 will keep pressures lower at a given speed.