Problems with 223 at 300 yards..

[Buckskin]

I've been having a hell of a time getting my R-15 223 to make any where near a decent group at 300 yards lately.  It had been right on, but all of a sudden it seems to be whacked out no matter which load I'm running.  Need help!

I've been playing with a couple different bullets.  Hornady soft point, Partitions and V-Max.  All in 55's.  Roughly 25 grains of Varget in each load, not really pushing it.  Yesterday I missed a coyote from 300 and decided to see where I was.  Put a target at 100 yards and shot a group that was well under an inch", but 3 inches high (which is fine for 300 yards) but 3 1/2 inches right.  Adjusted to the left and another group better than the first so I thought I was good.  Put it out to 300 yards and I would say that my group jumped out to about 10 inches at best!  And it really wasn't a group.  One way low and 2 to the left and low.  Tried another 3 and just as bad.  Tried another load and just as bad.  Cleaned gun and just as bad..

Should I try a heavier bullet?  Less powder?  What I don't get is that I was getting decent groups just a couple months ago with the same loads....

[rdmallory]

What twist is the barrel?
Are they key-holing?

Heavier bullets need 1-8 or faster generally.

Doug

[Buckskin]

I meant to add that... It's a 1/9 twist.  They are not key-holing, almost wish they were...

[gcrank1]

Scoped? If so it sure sounds like it has gone loose or bad.

[Buckskin]

It is scoped. And that was something I've considered and checked, but what I don't get is the very solid groups at 100.

[gcrank1]

With a rifle and load that has been reliable in the past I would be real inclined to pull down that whole scope/mount assembly and build it back up from start, then put on a different scope that I know is good to test. Of course, you could just swap out a scope but this is a good opportunity to redo the set-up and know you are good to go from bottom up. Great peace of mind in this......

[bilmac]

Quite a mystery Buck, why a load that shoots good at 100 won't shoot at 300. Did you maybe have some mirage the day you shot. I've never paid it any attention, but when I was on a Guard rifle team the oldtimers used to try to correct for it. Have you tried shooting again on a different day? How about grass or something between the gun and target?

[Buckskin]

No it was a great day for shooting.  I've never had an issue shooting 300 yds from this spot.  Actually it's my deck, not a blade of grass between me and the target.  Although I did once shoot through a leg of a patio chair while shooting at a coyote from there!

My feel is its the scope.  But I don't know how a loose scope can put bullets in the same hole at 100yds.......

[bilmac]

Well back to mirage. The way it was explained to me was heat waves can make the target appear where it isn't, kind of like light bending when it goes through water. I would try your 300 yard group again before I went crazy.

[sk330lc]

What Kind of scope?    Brand and Power??   

[84Jim]

If your gun shoots good groups at 100 yds., I don't figure that the scope is loose or anything.  Does your scope have a parrallax adjustment?  If its fixed at 100 yds as most non adjustable scopes are, that could cause you problems at longer ranges if you're not perfectly centered for every shot.  I'm also curious if it was windy, as 55 grainers are more prone to get blown around at longer ranges that heavier bullets.

Jim

[Buckskin]

Scope is a Bushnell 4200 4-16x50 and I did adjust parrallax at both ranges.  Maybe 5mph wind.  But it wasn't drift, they were all over the place.  I tightened the base again and snugged the rings.  It's a one piece base that goes on the picatinny rail, not my favorite.  Gonna give it a try right now...

[Buckskin]

Well Guy's, I think I figured out the problem and it wasn't anything to do with the gun.  Apparently it was my crappy reloads.  For some reason, likely too slow, they didn't group well at 300 yards.  I shot another 3 at 100 and they were a little high and left, so a couple clicks and I went out to 300 and same thing was happening as wednesday, although today, all down and left but not grouped.  I was about to give up for the day almost blaming it on the 5 or so mph wind... And I remembered that I had a handful of VMax loaded a little heavier.  Shot 3 and went to check target, at first I though I missed completely because I was so used to not looking at the bull, well 2 of three were dead center and the third was an inch or so low!  Shot 4 more times with one more in the center and the others reasonable.  Saved one round to autopsy and duplicate!

I don't know what the heck I did, but one of my problems is that I make small batches of bullets.  Probably should stick with one that works and pound out a bunch of them.
Thanks for the help!

[necchi]

Thanks for sharing, I've been watching this one with some interest.
Glad you found the problem.
I'm kinda doing the same, experimenting with different bullets, then when I find a sweet load, there are few bullets left for stock. Then with ALL the bullets out there it's tough to be happy with just one for universal use. So ya got some for this, an some for that, but each one requires a scope adjustment.

[SHOOTALL]

For what it is worth when bullets go sub sonic they sometimes show a slight reaction ie open group but will group well before and after this point . You might check at what yardage you load goes sub.

[bilmac]

Gotta watch them loads. I make reduced loads with Blue Dot. I was working up loads that shot real good, so I would make up a bunch and go hunting and couldn't hit nuthin. Tried the hunting stuff on paper and it was lousy. Finally after pulling a bunch of hair out it hit me that my test loads were weighed but I measured all my hunting loads. Ran the test and sure enough you have to carefully weigh each and every load with Blue Dot. I can shoot fine groups with measured loads of my usual slow powders.

[gcrank1]

You need a better measure! FWIW, having had a number of them, Ive been most satisfied with my Redding. Now I have 2, dedicated, one for each most used powder and looking at gun shows for a 3rd.
Another thought, if you have pistol or rifle cavities for your measure one may meter that powder better than the other.

[leather5to1]

I agree with shootall, check your velocities.  If you know your muzzle velocity you can plug it into some neat ballistics calculators.  Somewhere there is a free one that takes the actual bullet manufacture/model/weight and will give speed and trajectory at what ever intervals you want.  You can then find out where you go subsonic.  A bullet does wierd things when it drops below the sound barrier.  If I find that calculator I will post a link, I thought I had it saved to my favorites.

[leather5to1]

Here I found it on my laptop's favorite list: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.0.cgi
speed of sound is 1125 fps

[necchi]

 I can't afford a nice powered meter, I don't shoot the kind of volume needed too justify the cost, so I "toss then trickle" each charge.
 Good points about the velocity. Here's another "free" calculator that's a litte more "simple";
http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx
 This has been a good thread, kinda keeps a guy on his toes thinking about the simple things that can get overlooked and cause a mess of confusion,,Lord know's I don't have any hair left to pull when things get confounded

[gcrank1]

FWIW, keep your eye out at gun shows, I bought the 2nd Redding for $40 and recently a Lyman55 for $25!
Either are great.