45 70 reload question

[bikerbeans]

Hi All,

I want to load some gas checked cast lead on top of Blackhorn 209.  I am using this powder because I don't like to clean guns and I know it is way to expensive but I am lazy regarding cleaning.  I have the reload data from Western Powder and they state to use an overpowder wad with the BH 209.  I have zero experience loading BP or BP substitute cartridges but have shot MZs for 20+ years.  Muzzleloaders the bullet must be seated on the powder.  Is is okay to have space between the bullet and powder using the BP 209 powder or does this gap need to be filled with wads or other inert buffer?

thanks

BB

[necchi]

OH Boy! Better read this,,,
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

I appreciate the part about cleaning, but if anything, using BP or ANY of the sub's requires more cleaning than with modern powder.
It's all about water and getting the nitrites/percolates off the metal. It's a BIG deal. And everything I have read say's NO to air in the cartridge.

After posting this I went and looked at the "data",,
http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf
 And I guess your load will be between you and Western Powder, as I'm still learning about BPCR loading myself. I'm personally going to stay with much more traditional forms of loading for BPCR using Goex and MAYBE Pyrodex follwing advice from gent's that have it tried and true for decades.
 I'm not a BP purist like some, but I have a long background with ML gun's an do use T7 (something that will not go in my BPCR) but some of these new wiz-bang powders where developed for in-line rifles and are just plain not suited for some uses and beyond proving the gun's don't explode, most of the data is available for simple marketing purposes.
 I wish you luck friend, let us know how it works out, especially if your cases develop "rings" after shooting.

[bilmac]

Use smokeless

[McLernon]

Contact the manufacturer

Mc

[bikerbeans]

Hi Necchi,

The link was to an article that was published before BH 209 was on the market so I have sent a email to Western Powders for their guidance.  Will leave the 209 in the can until they respond.  Thanks for your input.

Bilmac,

I already load smokeless for the 45 70, just want to try something else.  Beside I have several pounds of the BH 209 because a couple of folks I know bought it for their MZs and found that Western wasn't kidding when they say your gun needs an enclosed 209 primer pocket to get this stuff to ignite.

thanks

BB

[LONGTOM]

About air between the bullet and the powder.

You can load Pyrodex pellets in a cartridge but it has air all around the pellets as well as up the middle through the ignition hole.
Why doesn't this cause any problems?
I have always wanted to have this question answered and no one yet has even made an attempt.



LONGTOM

[bikerbeans]

LongTom,

I was thinking about the air gap in the pellets also.  I think the real issue is air gap with real black powder.  Real BP is an explosive, meaning it explodes and doesn't just burn real fast.  Smokeless powder and BH 209 are both flammable solids meaning they burn at a low temp and when confined (gun chamber) burn really fast, but smokeless does not explode.  I do not know about the other BP substitutes but the BH209 is essentially a detuned (low density) smokeless powder.  Kinda of like Trail Boss.  You use regular smokeless solvent to clean the bore after shooting BH209 and if you don't clean it right away it doesn't instantly turn the inside of your barrel into a rusty iron pipe.  I believe this stuff is okay to load with an air gap but I am going to wait for Western Powders to confirm it is okay.

BB

[kevinsmith5]

BH 209 is a low density smokeless, so clean-up is literally identical to smokeless. I've loaded it in some 44 mag loads for a friend (he wanted the BP smoke, but not the clean-up) but have never loaded it without the bullet resting just barely touching the powder. I do know you should not compress it, as it is a hollow kernel powder.

[bikerbeans]

Thanks Kevin, glad to hear from someone who has put BH209 in a cartridge.  I haven't heard back from Western yet but some of there loads for the 45 70 are > 100% density and the pressures are in the low 20,000s so I may just try a load a couple with the bullet lightly resting on the powder. 

BB

[Smokin Joe]

Did you check the load data sheet at ? :

http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf

They list loads as low as 81% capacity.

I think I'd load to 99 or 100%. I think your idea of just touching the powder will work fine.

[bikerbeans]

Joe,

I have a copy of the BH 209 load data sheet.  I think I will load to just on top of the powder.  I have some 500 grain Cast that I can only load to 2.48" OAL, do to the short throat of my gun, so probably start with these.  Give me something to put into the short Hornady brass I have from going through a couple of boxes of their Leverolution ammo. 

thanks

BB

[mechanic]

I loaded up about 60 cartridges of BH in 45-70 and shot them last year.  I drop tubed the powder and measured until I established a volume loading with the bullet just off the powder.  I then used a felt wad.  They shot fine, but nothing exceptional.  It's an expensive powder, as you are using 60+ grains when less of a smokeless would do a better job.

If you want smoke without mess, this may be your answer.  

[bikerbeans]

Hi All,

Below is from Keith Anderson, Western Powders, regarding less than full case loading of Blackhorn 209 powder.

BB


"Tom,
 
Thank you for your interest in Western Powders, Inc., Blackhorn 209 black powder substitute.
 
When using Blackhorn 209 in cartridges it is permissible to have airspace in the cartridge allowing you to reduce the charge. 
 
I like to use a filler any time the powder charge gets below an 85% case fill to the bottom of the bullet.  All the filler does is keep the powder positioned toward the primer which helps keep the load consistent.
 
I hope this answers your questions.
 
Best regards,
Keith Anderson
Western Powders Ballistic Lab
Ramshot/Accurate Powders
Tel: (406) 234-0422  email: keith@ramshot.com
Western Powders Inc -- Miles City – Montana."

[bikerbeans]

Finally finished loading 223 for my wife and kid to go to a rifle shoot this weekend so I now have the correct (45 70) dies back in my Dillon.  I measured the hornady LE once fired brass and at 100% it holds 30 grains of BH 209.  This is loading a Lee 500 grain RNFPGC bullet to an OAL of 2.48, which is 0.20 off the lands in my handi.  I loaded only three rounds, 28, 29 & 30 grains.  I loaded the BP 209 directly from a brass blackpowder measure into the case sitting on my scale.  Then put the round back on the shell plate and finished loading. Just enough crimp to remove the bell.  Used Remington Large Rifle primers instead of the Federal Mag LP.  Shot an approx 1.5" group @ 50 yards from the sitting position, no rest.  Imediate ignition, nice little puff of smoke, recoil extremely mild and there is promise for the accuracy.  A little bit of blowback on the 28 grain load, none on the other two.  Need a new chrono, but these have to be in the 1,000 to 1,100 FPS range.  This round would allow someone very small or young to shoot a 45 70 without getting a gashed forehead and bruised shoulder.  I think I am going to continue the experiment with some 405 grn cast and see what I can get out it at 100 yards.  Also, residue in the barrel no worse than some factory ammo I have shot.  I am sure I can duplicate this with Trail Boss, but I will lose my smoke!


BB