Winchester 94 Carbine does not like 158gr. cast SWC

[guzzijohn]

Reloaded some 38 sp. 158 cast SWC with 4.4 Unique. At about 30 yards my patterns look more like from a shotgun (8-10 inches). With .357 125 jacketed Hornady I get about a 1 to 1.5 inch group. This is using a red dot sight. I would like to use the cast bullets more due to cost but cannot even plink with this poor of accuracy. The same bullet shoots fine in my Blackhawk. Any thoughts of load suggestions?
GuzziJohn

[Dee]

About 20 years ago I bought a new Winchester carbine in 44 mag. Jacketed bullets shot great. Cast bullets would literally keyhole at 15 yards. These were target loads not hot loads. The dealer offered me my money back or she would send the rifle off. I opted for the money, and didn't buy another pistol caliber rifle for years.
When I bought the Winchester Model 92 clone from Navy Arms, I was apprehensive, but 5 or 6 years later, ti is not for sale. It is a tack driver.
Try loading the same velocity load in 357 mag cases and see what happens, if you want to keep the rifle. It may not make a difference I don't know. I didn't try it in mine, and it may have worked, but 44 special brass was cheaper than 44 mag brass so it would have not been relevant to me then or possibly now.

[SHOOTALL]

Modern Reloading list 4.3 gr as max for your load . But Dee has a good point as i had same thing with a 44 Marlin rifle years ago.

[guzzijohn]

Thanks for the responses. I was planning to load some magnum cases here after Christmas to see if it helps any. It was either my Spier or Hornady manual that listed the 4.4 load and if I remember 4.6 was maximum. I may try to reduce a bit however and see if that makes a difference. I just have way more .38 cases than I do .357 at this time.
GuzziJohn

[Dee]

The fact of the matter is guzzijohn, the rifle SHOULD shoot them just fine, but on looking at two Lyman manuals I think you may be a little hot, and you lead could be a little soft. Drop the load down to 3.4 grains of Unique and see what happens. This is a load out of the Lyman 46th Edition and I like theirs better than any other.

[guzzijohn]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I finally got the time and weather to reload and shoot. I went down to 3.8 gr. of unique and my groups went down to 1.5. I can live with that.
GuzziJohn

[Sweetwater]

Just a thought - what happens if you load like a Thompson or other bullet with two crimp grooves and crimp in the lower groove (not the grease groove) which brings you to 357Mag OAL with your 38Spl case?

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Rangr44]

Just another stray thought - Didja REALLY get the bore scrubbed clean of copper, with a good copper cleaner, before shooting the cast lead boolits ?

.

[454Puma]

guzzijohn
 Is that 1.5" at 50 yards?  That group should be an 1" or under at 50 yards!! I'm thinking your barrel might be on the large as for bore size!! Try some of those case bullets unsized .359-.360" might shoot alot better! 

[Mikey]

guzzijohn:  dang buddy, sounds like you have a Marlin barrel on that Winchester - and that is not uncommon.  I would look down your bore to see how many lands and grooves you have.  I have 3 Winchester 94 AEs in 444 marlin and every dang one of them came with a marlin Microgroove barrel - so I bore lapped them all and the now shoot great. 

If yours wears a microgroove barrel you will have to bore lap/fire lap to obtain maximum accuracy and you may have to use gaschecked bullets for higher speed loads although plain base bullets will work well (very well) at slower velocities. 

If you decide to bore lap/fire lap, drop on down to Veral Smith's website for his discussions on lapping bores.  One of his deciples, Marshal Stanton of Beartooth Bullets also writes about lapping microgroove bores and sells the materials and kit to accomplish the job.  HTH.

[guzzijohn]

Thanks for the continued suggestions. I was shooting at about 30 yards. This is the only 94 I have owned so I did not really know what to expect accuracy wise. I am only using it for plinking and pest control. So far it is minute of skunk with jacketed HPs. As I have time I will continue to play with it. Also I am not totally confident in the red dot. It is a cheap one (Simmons for $35 new) as I wanted to try one out before laying out money for something of higher quality. Being in my mid 50s that red dot seems easier to use than the iron sites although I hate to disrupt the lines of the carbine, maybe a peep? I believe this is a late 80s or early 90s model with the crossbolt safety and a trigger with a lot of slop. Otherwise it has very nice wood and is very handy and certainly outshoots my Handi in .243, now there is a rifled shotgun even after trying most of the Handi tips.
GuzziJohn

[Harry Snippe]

You might try going down a bit with your powder charge . We shoot a mildload with  Tilegroup in a 38 case with Rn 158 cast and they do groupin our 357 trapper .