VERNIER SIGHT-3"or 5"?

[David I.]

I'm almost ready to order my vernier sight,(saved my pennies), but I need to know whether to order the 3" or 5". I have an H&R BC in 45-70 and I will never be shooting any farther than 400yds. I did lower the front sight from .584" to .494" so I can better utilize my factory WGRS rear sight for closer ranges (100yds). I will be purchasing the less expensive (although just recently went up $10) RS-CREED-3-WE or 5-WE from TOTW. I asked TOTW this height question and one of the things they said was "rule of thumb the 3" is for up to 600yds", they also gave me other info to attempt calculation. I'm wondering if any one out there has installed a 3" tall vernier sight on their H&R BC and have used it to shoot 400yds? I realize I'd be safe in buying the 5" tall model but I'd really prefer to not get such a tall one if I don't need it. As I mentioned in earlier threads, I will be using small threaded inserts in my stock grip to install this vernier sight. It would save me some time and calculating if someone out there could tell me for sure or not if I can use the 3" model. I know I read some time back one or more people bought this sight for their BC but I can't remember which height model they bought or how far they were wanting to shoot! Thanks in advance for the help.

[AtlLaw]

I dunno Dave, but keep us informed.  I may want to try that on my 45-120 BC.     I'm especially interested in the means of mounting the sight you came up with.  I remember the discussion, but will have to go back and look for it to remind myself...    I hate being senile... 

[David I.]

Thanks Richard, me too....as far as being senile! As far as more about mounting the verneir sight.....What I had in mind was to buy two small threaded inserts and inlet them into the wood stock (will also use epoxy). I don't know exactly how thick the wood is in this area but I heard it's none too thick, so I will be buying rather short inserts(could always grind shorter if need be). I'm opting to go with the inserts instead of inletting a false tang, I see no need for a false tang and feel the inserts, if properly done, will be plenty strong enough....as long as I don't give it a good wack! I will only be using the vernier sight for target anyway, so it won't get bumped around to speak of. Going with the inserts is also much less labor intensive than a false tang, I won't even have to take the stock off.  P.S. We really aren't senile Richard, we just have a harder time storing info in our long term memory bank because it's already pretty full, therefore becoming more selective!

[quickdtoo]

I think Benrie has a 3" vernier on one of his BCs, it and mounting it is discussed in one of the links in the LONG RANGE SIGHTS FOR THE BC and TARGET thread in the FAQs. I've got a Marbles tang sight that I'll be mounting on my 38-55 Target using the inserts below.

Tim

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=897-906

[David I.]

Thanks for the info Tim. Those are pretty nice inserts, but I will probably just get whatever my local store has....since I will be using epoxy with mine I'm sure they will be plenty good. I really don't have a problem regarding how I'm going to mount my vernier sight....but I do need to find out if I can get away with the 3" model or not! I looked in the FAQ section you referenced and I didn't see any mention as to how far he was going to shoot, only that he was putting the vernier sight on his 38-55 for appearances only!

[quickdtoo]

Bernie shoots at least 600yds with his, the OP isn't Bernie in that thread, Bernie is dodd3, he's the poster who posted the pics of the short vernier on his H&R.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,92122.msg569614.html#msg569614

[David I.]

Thanks Tim. After reading all those posts again I noticed Grizz bought the 5", but as you say Bernie used the 3" model. If you are absolutely sure that Bernie shoots to 600yds with his 3" vernier on his 45-70 BC, then I will order the 3" model tomorrow. Do you know what height front sight he has? As I stated earlier, I lowered my front sight to .494" which will help vs the factory .584". Unless you or Bernie tell me otherwise, I will be going with the 3" model. As I said, I really don't want that extra 2" in height up there if I don't need it and will never use it. Thanks again Tim. 

[quickdtoo]

I'd PM him and ask, he's on regularly, I get emails from him just about every day. That's on his Shikari, I'm not sure what front sight he uses on it, I know he has the .404" front sight on his BC and has shot 600yds with the Williams FP-TK tho, so I'd expect the 3" sight to be good for 400yds.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks again Tim, very helpful and I do appreciate it. I will contact Bernie via PM.

[srussell]

hey guys im thinking about putting a vernier sight on my BC. will the sight lay down flat on the stock? are will the hammer be in the way thinks bill

[quickdtoo]

It's gotta be mounted to lay back instead of forwards, see the links I referred to in the FAQs earlier.

Tim

[lonewolf5348]

I use on my 38-55 B.C> front sight .400 and use the williams FP rear sight (not the ladder type)
I can reach out to 500 yards at about the
1/2 way point on the rear williams FP side plate scale marks .
I would say 1000 yards if I can see that far would be no problem

[David I.]

Update: I contacted Bernie(dodd3) and he said I should have no problem shooting to 400yds with the 3" tall vernier, I hope he (and others) are right because I ordered one today from TOTW. I realize a receiver sight on an H&R would provide more accuracy but they can get pricey, besides...I kind of had my heart set on a tang vernier. I have done some accuracy mods to my gun which will also help. I did do some shimming on the barrel lug sides to eliminate most of the side play, I free floated the forend, I also did a trigger job...I got it down from 4.5 lbs to about 2.75-3 lbs, I did surface harden the engagement areas and re-polish a little so the poundage should not diminish appreciably in time. I've done other things to the gun also, but not necessarily for accuracy....I shortened the factory Lyman globe front sight from .584" to approx. .494"(to save money and because the barrel dovetail slot was slightly askew), and I added a nice lace-on recoil pad. Anyway, for now I've been shooting at 50 and 100yds while working up my handloads. So far, my results are OK but I'm about to try some new loads and my lighter trigger....I HATE hard triggers. I'm also going to try using my neighbors rifle rest to help me see what the gun can do, of course keeping in mind I'm searching for a load my gun likes plus the fact that the barrel is new.

[quickdtoo]

Sounds like a great plan!! One of the things that I intend to do if I ever mount the Marbles tang sight is epoxy bed the butt stock to the frame, Fred M discusses this on his website, I think it would be very important to get the best accuracy and consistency of a stock mounted sight, next best thing to a real tang mounted sight. 

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Tim and the info regarding bedding the buttstock to the frame. I will have to read up on that but I don't remember what his website is! Can I get it off one of the accuracy mods in the FAQ section?

[quickdtoo]

Yes, just go to one of Fred's posts and click his website link, or go to it from one of his links in the FAQs, he's got several posts, it's probably under accurizing.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks Tim, and thanks for all the help.....again!

[David I.]

Another update: I received and temporarily installed the RS-CREED-3-WE tang vernier sight. It is definately tall enough, I temporarily taped it on and shot to 300yds with the eye disk not even up half way. It's actually a pretty nice sight, but I was having problems with it snapping partially forward under recoil rebound! I don't know if the detent spring isn't strong enough or if it was something I was doing. I will say it was NOT from my hand or thumb because I purposely held them to the side to see if that was it. I was using a rifle rest and pulling the stock pretty hard into my shoulder. I would appreciate any help or comments on this....I'm not sure what to do about this if anything.

[Chas.]

I have the 5" installed in 2 rifles - a BC and a Marlin 1895CB.  Same sight as yours, only 5".  Both have to be repositioned after every shot.  I just thought it went with the turf.

[David I.]

Thanks Chas. for the info. I wonder if most vernier sights do this with 45-70 or just this less expensive model that Pedersoli makes. I'm still wondering if it needs a stronger spring or a better designed detent (notch) or something.

[gcrank1]

Totally normal, they are supposed to 'give' to avoid damage to both the shooter and the sight.

[David I.]

They are spring loaded mainly to get them out of the way when not in use and to not get damaged as easily in transport and fit in gun cases and scabbards. Under heavy recoil they may start to fold, especially if the spring is exceptionally weak....as mine is. This sight is a very simple design with a flat spring bent to a slight "V" to apply some pressure and "locate" in a groove in the bottom of the upright. My spring was way too weak, it barely held the upright in posistion, there is no question on this fact, I do have a mech/tech background. An easy fix for one that has a weaker spring is to do what I did: I simply bent the spring just a tad more and now it is as it should be. This is not to say it may not start to fold under heavy recoil but I know it now indexes properly and won't get moved so easily, like from a fly or light breeze! I do know it now won't start to fold shooting fairly light loads because I tried it. The sight can still "give" if need be and still fold manually....it's still spring loaded and not THAT hard to move.