Model 70...Control or Push feed? HELP!!

[Keith L]

Now lets keep this to a gun discussion.  It is starting to get personal, and if that continues then I will lock this thread.  I never thought I would have to on this forum.

[Tonk]

Now let me just say this about the model 70 Winchester pre-64 type action rifle~! I once knew a couple of Army and Marine Sgts. who cut their teeth on a 30-06 bolt action rifle and that rifle was a model 70 Winchester period. Now both these US service men could hit a friggin apple off a fence post at 800 yards. I know that many out may be a bit skeptical of these facts I stated but those gentlemen were real rifleman! However, I suppose in some peoples eyes a Winchester model 70 bolt action rifle could never do such a thing. The branches of the service would beg to differ with anyone who cares to inquire.

Casull, anytime you want to drop on by my teepee in the Ozarks, I'll give you a demo of what a model 70 pre-64 action Winchester rifle can do down range. Yes, I would be only to happy to oblige you and yours!

[saddlebum]

Okay, I wasn't going to post but what the heck. I have worked with 3 M70s and they were all great shooters. Two of them were .243 WIN and the other a 3006. Both of the .243s shot 3/4" 3 shot groups from the first 3 rds fired from the gun. One with Hornaday 100gr and the other with my handloads with a Nosler 100gr Solid Base,(they quit making years ago). They both would put 3, 70gr Noslers in about a 1/4" at 100yds. Hard to be exact, it was just a tiny little ragged hole. These .243s,(a Featherweight and a Lightweight) were purchased around '86 or 87 brand new. I set the triggers at 2.5 pound pull with no creep or overtravel by just adjusting the screws,and they were perfect. They were both push feed and me and my wife loved them The one I have now is a Stainless Sporter Classic CRF with a walnut factory sporter stock in 3006. It was one of the last ones made before US REPEATING ARMS went under in 2006,(I think). This gun was really rough. It had a little nick on the mussel crown so before I ever shot it I took it to a gunsmith to have it recrowned. Then I started working on the trigger. Man what a job that was. I took alot of metal off the trigger and sear to get a good pull with no creep. It sucked. I also replaced the cheep plastic mag follower with an aluminum one. I first fire lapped it with those lapping,breakin rounds you can buy to take the rough off the bore. Finally I put it on paper and it put 3 180gr Sierra boattails into 3/4" at a 100yds. Oh, I bedded the action and free floated the barrel too. Since '64 Winchester has always had quality control issues. I have seen some that were near custom quality and some that were junky. From '64 to the '80s or whenever they sold out to Browning,(US REPEATING ARMS), I never liked them cause of the white line spacers, clunky monticarlo stocks, ugly plastic forend caps, and push feed bolts. Not that they weren't good shooters but I bought Rugers instead. When USRA took over the guns got alot better and they brought back the CRF and made most everyone happy. But quality control still became an issue. I looked for years for a.243 Featherweight before I found one with a pretty stock on it. The two .243s above had perfect triggers on them but the 3006 trigger was the worst I ever saw on a bolt rifle. The only saving grace about that trigger is the M70 design thats not too hard to fix, if you have a steady hand. Some time in the past they started making 2 piece bolt bodies instead of one piece of steel. I have heard that a few people have had the bolt body come loose and some guys have it welded. All in all I still think the M70 is the best design there is. You just have to find a good one or make it into a good one. If Winchester had kept the quality standards high they would have beat out Remington but now they dominate everyone. I hate their safety. Can't beat the M70 safety. Thats why they make conversions for Remingtons to a M70 style safety. As far as CRF vs. pushfeed it doesn't matter much. I like them both.

[shvlhead.45]

AGLASS1987,

I'll try to stay on subject here.  I don't get too wrapped around the axle on push or controlled feed for the following reasons:
1. Most machine guns with rotating bolts are of the push feed type mechanism and they dependably shoot way more rounds than most bolt guns ever will and the down range target is usually capable of returning fire so the dangerous game line is out for me. 

2. Both action types are capable of sub-MOA groups, both should be loaded only with loads loaded within spec.

3.  I don't know anyone that can shoot MOA or better off hand when hunting nor do I know anyone that can shoot much under .250 at a 100 yds off the bench. 

4.  Does it float your boat, if yes get it, if no find one that does.

Respectfully,

SH.45

[Swampman]

[quote}3.  I don't know anyone that can shoot MOA or better off hand when hunting nor do I know anyone that can shoot much under .250 at a 100 yds off the bench.[/quote]

I've done both. 

[Keith L]

Personal attacks will not be tolerated on GBO.  I just trashed one post, and if it happens again I will report the poster to the Boss.  You can disagree without being disagreeable.

[mcwoodduck]

There is a reason every bolt-action rifle in the entire rifle world compares itself with the pre-64 model 70.

 

The Model 70 has never been noted for it's accuracy.  The push feed will be more accurate than the CRF.

?  What?
Accuracy has nothing to do with how the round gets into the chamber.
And the M70 was the bench mark for rifles as it was a favorite of Jack O'Conner and was given the moniker of the riflemans rifle.
When you look at the rifles of just after WWII you had big clunky rifles and the model 54 and later the 70 were nice smooth atractive rifles at prices that most people could afford that had features of the english Rigbys, Griffen and Howe (MUCH?), or H&H in calibers that were wanted and popular.  If you look at the Remington M30 it was a demilitary 1914 or 1917 and the action was longer than needed and again was a clunky military action.  the 721's were kind of ugly and chunky looking with square box mags that did not fit flush.
And the Ford Vs Chevy argument that is out there between Remington and Winchester had each talking about the benefits of each type of feeding and safety.  Much like some people would rather push thier pick up than ride in the other model.  I am not one of those people.  I look for caliber and what I want it for, woods, fields, medium, big or large game.
I own Remintons, Rugers, and Wincher rifles (add to that Sako, Mauser, and CZ in center fire Bolts).  none is more accurate than the others. I like some of the features of each rifle. 
Personally I like the looks of the extraction claw of my Post 64 Classic action.  I was going to get another M70 that was a push feed but could not come to a price with the shop, had it been a Rem 700/ Ruger / Savage/ Mauser in the same caliber I would have wanted it as well.  They wanted 100% NIB Blue book price for a 70-75% condition rifle.  I bought a Sako AIII instead at a shop across town.

Now, if you like the rifle and the caliber get it.  If it fits a whole in your battery, if it is a good price, or you want to help out a buddy, or you just want a Winchester then get it.

[Swampman]

That big ole CRF extractor putting pressure on the base of the cartridge prevents really great accuracy.  For dangerous game it probably doesn't matter.

[LONGTOM]

I seem to recall that back during WWII there was a training video about never using the enemies weapons because they were inferior and couldn't be trusted.
May well be, but they sure killed a lot of our guys.
I know if I had been there and for some reason was out of ammo or without a firearm I sure wouldn't have hesitated to pick one up and use it until something better came along.
No I wasn't in the war.
Wasn't born yet.
If it works, who cares.

The most accurate rifle I have ever owned or shot is a Win pre war model 70 in 22 hornet.
This gun is untouched in any way except the barrel has been cut off with a hacksaw (done before I acquired it) by hand and isn't even square.
There is no crown either, just a flat end.
No way this thing should shoot, but it does.
Five shots with factory Win HP ammo has cut all five holes at 100.
Don't know how it can do this since every gun writer in the world will tell you that a square barrel along with a perfect crown is a must for accuracy.
Just goes to show there is always an exception to the rule!

So to some of the above replies I say, to each their own.
I love my model 70s, CRF & PUSH FEED.
I also love my Rem model 30S EXPRESS rifles.
They all kill if I do my part.
So does all those cheap HANDIs I own also.
Not many rifles in my neck of the woods that can shoot with my 204 Handi with factory ammo, except my cut Hornet!!!.
Like I said above, "If it works, who cares".



LONGTOM

[saddlebum]

I'm sorry if my previous post got some people wound up about my statements. I was just trying to maybe answer some questions and statements made in earlier posts. Stuff about accuracy of push feed vs. CRF, quality of Winchesters, and a little history. If interested you can go to the Rifle Magazine site and find  2 great articles on M70s in one of their issues from last year that I got some of my info. from. I think you have to buy the magazine though. I told about my experiences with the 3 M70s I have worked with as an example. I did forget to mention that the 3006 is a CRF,(post '64 Classic version), for the sake of comparison to the 2 push feed models. I'm sorry if my statements about the accuracy I was getting sounds like a fish story to some. I have no reason to lie since I have nothing to gain from it. I used to be obsessed with ringing as much accuracy out of my guns as I could by tinkering with the gun and reloading. I used to waste alot of ammo shooting off the bench testing loads and emprovements to the rifle. I practiced all the things I read and learned from guys like Jack O'Conner, Elmer Keith, and Ross Seyfried and others to shoot better. Trigger control, breathing, concentration on sight picture and target to take as much human error out of the equation as possible. After the accuracy issue was resolved to my satisfaction we would then go out on weekends and shoot praire dogs and jackrabbits and stuff from field positions for practice. Prone, knealing, sitting, off hand. There is lots of long range practice to be had in Wyoming. I also gave my opinion of M70s and Remingtons since someone else brought it up. If you don't agree with me or have never experienced the kind of accuracy I get, or just think I'm full of it thats fine. But don't get yourself kicked off the forum for it. Just take it for what it's worth and read on. Have a good one!!!

[Keith L]

If you had stuck with explaining your opinion about technical details about the rifle your post would still be here.  You turned it into an attack on another poster.  I will not allow that to happen here.  It is against the rules. Period.  I had to remove another one this morning from a poster who has been around far to long and knows better.  Once more and I lock this thread.

[gunnut69]

I probably own 50-65 centerfire rifles just now and many M70's. The pre war (WW II) rifles were better finished and set accuracy standards. Controlled round feed keeps the shooter from double feeding or short stroking the action. Perfected by Mauser in the immortal M98 it was a blessing on the battle field. Our springfield and enfield rifle copied many mauser concepts. The M30 remington in a cleaned up M1917 Enfield. The M721-722 Remington series rifles DO NOT have a protruding box magazine, they have a flush fit magazine and other than cosmetic changes are identical to todays current M700(long/short action). Discounting various custom actions the M700 is the most popular action for target applications. Not because it a better action but because it's easier to sleeve it. The tubular actions thus can be easily made stiffer and that's a really good thing for a target shooter. Cutting the M700 for a Sako or M16 style extractor is a poor idea. They do provide a better extraction bite but the M700's been designed to not allow gas escape and with the cut in the bolt face it most certainly leak if the primer or case leaks.. What happens if 65,000PSI gas leaks into a M700?? It goes into the shooters face, If glass were present just a scary episode, otherwise you may be learning to shoot lefthanded. With the bolt face uncut the gas is controlled by the '3 rings of steel'. Most rifles without the M700 design use various designs to controll excaping gas.. As to the shooter being injured by the escaping extractor, that's a definite possibility. As to quality the post war M70's were getting sloppy and I've seen many that had warped actions.. The post 64 guns were ugly but worked OK after the bolot guide was added in the '70s. Until that point it was possible in a heated moment to force the bolt to bind. Until the push feed was used the extractor acted as the bolt guide as it does on the mauser. I've built and shot for 45 years and would rate the mauser as the best designed rifle, the M70 as the most elegant and the M700 as the best for target use.. ALL have weaknesses. The mauser is in the main a case hardened action and this limits pressure.. The Winchester (pre 64) is usually a little crooked usually and the trigger is not easily set to really light weights. The M700 has a miserable trigger that includes a stupidly designed connector that can be deadly. It has the weakest extractor I've seen..even though they usually work it's the only extractor on a centerfire I've hand problems with other than a brokem claw on a mauser and a M70 whose extractor that was not tempered.. And lastly (glad aren't you) a friend has a M70 featherweight in 300 WinMag. When he bought it(cheap) the bedding had shattered and accuracy was Poor!! Bedded the lug and it shot fine. Short barrel limits the utility of all that case capacity so its louder than most and not as powerful as it should be. The gun weighs almost the same as a standard M70 as the barrel is of standard profile..Recoil is about what any 300 mag is.. Truth is the gun doesn't matter at all, the gunner is the key. Also the gentlemen that can shoot an apple of a post at 800 should take up shooting proffensionaly, he make big money! Unless of course he took 25 rounds to hit the apple, 800 yards is a long ways off.. luck to all.

[steve y]

Reading this thread with interest as I just bought a new M70 in 30-06. Have worked up and shot quite a few loads and have to say that barring a few fliers most groups were between 1-1.5" depending on the powder charge. It's trigger is excellent and compares favorably with the accutrigger. I have enjoyed it very much and it's quality is very good. I have not owned nor shot a pre-war, pre 64 or post 64 so all I've got to go on is others opinions. I have two Savages that are push feed and haven't had problems with them. The differences are in the calibers. 204 vs. 30-06. The 204 is much more accurate of course and does it's job of killing coyotes extremely well. Based on my experience so far Winchester should be very proud of this rifle and I think it deserves the name "The riflemans rifle." If the opportunity arises again I wouldn't hesitate to buy another M70. Steve

[BRL]

I know this is an old thread with a few new posts...but it applies to something that I am pondering right now.

I have signed up for a Practical Rifle class in October. The class will teach practical rifle shooting basics from field positions out to 400 yards and close quarter tactical work with a standard bolt action rifle. The instructor requests that the students use a bolt action rifle for purposes of "getting good" with cycling a bolt gun, etc. He also teaches a carbine/tactical course but says this Practical course is not intended for that kind of work.

Anyway, I talked to him today and he STRONGLY recommends a Winchester M70 for this class. He told me that because all of my rifles are semi-auto, levers and single shot. So, he said if I were going to buy a rifle for this course, the M70 is the best one for the job. The class has us shooting 500 rounds in 2 1/2 days.

I had thought to take a Browning BLR lever action in 7mm-08. However, he said "I can't guarantee that your rifle would make it through the class". He has seen rifles deteriorate quickly with that kind of shooting. He said my Browning is nice hunting rifle but this much shooting might be too much for it.

So, what are your thoughts on this? He is a big believer in the strength and stability of the M70. I know others must have used other rifles in his class over the years. This would be my first bolt gun purchase. Just thought I would get some experienced opinions here before making the purchase. I have decided that I will buy a rifle for this course and probably make that my go to hunting rifle after that. However, the rifles I was looking at were a little less costly than an M70.

Thank you!!

[Bigeasy]

BRL-

There are a dozen and one good bolt actions out there besides the model 70 that would work fine.  R/E the BLR comment - I own 3, and have never had a problem, including a .358 with a LOT of rounds thru it.  These two statement make me question this "instructors" knowledge.  I would be pretty upset if one of my BLR's would not shoot 500 rounds without failing...  Just bear in mind the rifles lack of camming power compared to a bolt action, and clean it every 100 rounds or so.  I think it is a good idea to use the gun you actually hunt with when taking such a course.

Larry

[BRL]

Larry, good points. He agreed that the BLR was a good rifle. He just has seen other rifles that became hard to cycle and accuracy drop off substantially with rapid shooting over the day, especially in the Florida heat. Also, one of the goals of the class is to become proficient with a bolt action hunting rifle. He told me that it might be a good idea to bring the BLR and do a few of the drills with it but not to rely on it for the whole class.

I agree that it would be best to train with the gun I would use for hunting. Well, if I bought a bolt action for this class, I'd probably continue to practice with that rifle and it would become my "go to" gun for hunting.

What are some of the other rifle designs similar to the M70?

[charles p]

Surely there will be times to clean your barrel during a 500 round session.

[Keith L]

What kind of hunting do you train for firing 500 rounds in 2 days except P dogs? 

[BRL]

There will be a cleaning session at the end of the day.

Keep in mind that this is not a hunting course. This is a rifle training course. Will it help with hunting? I think so. The main objective is rifle handling in different situations/positions...and practice, practice, practice.

Thank you!