.357 Herrett...can't get case shoulder set back enough!

[alan in ga]

It could be the neck also, but I can run a shortened 30/30 case into a FL die until it strongly cams over. It will not enter the chamber of my Super 14 .357 Herrett far enough. I'm using a Lee shell holder for the 30/30 but that shouldn't make any difference. Cases trimmed to 1.75" or even a bit shorter. I'm going to blacken a case and see if I can tell where it's being 'stopped'. It needs to enter a few hundredths more.
Did the case black. It is the shoulder as a ring shows where it is stopped from entering the chamber the last few thou.
I'll probably just take off a few hundredths off the die bottom in the lathe.

[Dezynco]

Before you skin the bottom off the die....

I think that you should need a firm "kachunk", maybe 2 to close the barrel for the first firing.  That forces the shoulder into the chamber firmly, allowing the brass to form to the chamber properly.  Once that is done, a FL resize is all that is needed for the cartridges to drop right into the chamber.

The 357 Herret actually headspaces off the shoulder, not the rim.

Now you see why most folks went to the 35 Remington.  The 357 Herret is a very fine cartridge for the Contender, but it takes a couple of steps to get the cartridge  correct. 

[alan in ga]

someone else said to anneal the case neck as well. Might make the 'spring back' different. I'd like to be able to size the case to where I don't have to 'hammer' the action closed just to get it in. I would like for the FL die to get it to where it can enter and then close with maybe a bit of a snap with one try. I should be able to get a tight shoulder contact fit with my die and not have to abuse the frame/barrel sizing the case.....?
My very first Contender was a .35 Rem and I agree it is the 'best choice'. However, I couldn't pass up a Super 14 barrel in .357 Herrett for $50! The dies cost me $50 and that for used dies! Oh well, live and learn.
I'll hold off on cutting the die just in case it's something else that somebody may suggest.
I'm enjoying tinkering with this ol wildcat...  :  )

[Dezynco]

It's been a while since I made brass for my 2 barrels.  Seems like I remember needing to size a little, trim a little, size a little, trim a little.....until I got the die just right for the brass to fit (the first one or two).  Once that was done, I could just crank them through the sizer then trim them and I was ready to fire form.

I do remember from my reading prior to forming 357 Herret brass that the case should be fairly stiff to close up on the first firing.  If it does not, you'll risk having the shoulder too far back, causing misfires.  I understand what you're saying, if the gun is really hard to close, you might have a problem.  Check your cases against drawings to see if the shoulder is indeed in the correct place.

Here's a link to Accurate Powder's sight that has some data and a technical drawing of the case:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20Herret%20T-C%20data%20page%20106.pdf

You might consider using a different manufacturer's brass.  Winchester brass is usually the thinnest, therefore the easiest to reform.  Are you using new brass?  I wouldn't try to reform used brass either, it tends to develop a "memory" and is harder to reform.

[alan in ga]

thanks, good thoughts. I'm using once fired Federal brass. I have some WW brass and will try them. Also going to anneal a few to see if any difference. The Federal brass is also old, a dozen or more years old since it was fired.
Turning the lathe 'off' for a while....ha~!
I know about the 'snap closed-slight crush' deal. I've made about 1,500 rounds of 17 Ackley Hornet and do the slightly crushed shoulder thing. In fact I've rebarrelled several Ackley Improved rifles on my lathe. I've 'corrected' a few Ackley Improved rifles that someone reamed without setting back the barrel first. That's with rimless cases, but the Herrett is supposed to be treated as though it is a rimless case.
You got me thinking about the brass I'm using. As with many gunsmith tinkerers, I'm cheap and like to use used brass. Sometimes it pays to start with new brass. I'm still cheap though, gonna get the annealing going and see what the Federal brass behaves like when it's a bit softer.
Thanks for the great input guys!

[Hopalong7]

      I've had to grind a little off the bottom of a couple of FL dies for proper chambering in Contender barrels.  Memory is not working this morning, but i'd not be surprised if one of them was the 357Herrett.  It's not a big deal, just do a little and try...etc...
      From a purely performance stand point, the 357 Herrett is a better choice than the 35Rem in a 10" barrel, but. when you get to a 14" tube things change TMWOT.  I made a 10" 'er out of my S-14 barrel, so now I've got a full bull 10" 357Herrett with two forend bosses for my Pachy forend and I'm liking it a lot.
Walt

[alan in ga]

thanks, more good info.

My die probably needs a 10 thou cut on base just to allow me to get a 'tight' fit in the chamber! I'm going to anneal some cases first and see what happens.

[sbhg]

I have a .22-250 AI that the chamber is tight on, I had to grind (4" or bench grinder, the top doesn't have to be perfectly flat) a little off of the top of the shell holder to get the bolt to close w/o being tight. (same prob. as you)
I have 1 shell holder for ea. die set, so if I run into probs. I wont be spreading it around.
 

[mbk]

Rather than grinding on the the on dies, I have been taking a little off a few shell holders to correct the same problem you are having with not being able to bump the shoulders back enough.  I have several T/C barrels slightly short chambered this way.  I figured the shellholders were cheaper than the dies if I wanted to trade something off later.  I have just been using my 1/2" drill press.  I flip my shellholder upside down and tighten the chuck up against the bottom of the shoulder.  It sets the shellholder in nice an level and I can just lower it down on some emory paper on the press table until enough it sanded off.  Makes a nice smooth flat surface on the top of the shell holder and it goes pretty quickly.  Not necessarily the best way, but it works very well for me.

Mike

[delt167502]

I would not anneal the case necks untill I have fire formed the cases it seems to make them to soft they have a tendency to fold at the sholder if you do. I have a 357 Herrett that I have used for at least 35 years. to form the cases I use loaded 30-30 shells,by (carfully) runing them thru the 357 herrett sizing die then they fit easly into the chamber. then fire form them it gives the length that you will need to trim as it shows where the rifling starts.trim then anneal only the neck. It seems to work for me some of my cases are as much as 15 years old. My loads are in the 1800fps_158 grs and for the light loads, 2000 fps,125hp. for hogs i use case in the 180 range. Let me know if it works for you--  once you start hunting with it you will find your self using it more and more. (good luck)   my 2 cents.

[alan in ga]

annealing: In forming thousands of 17 Ackley Hornet cases, I usually ran the new/used 22 hornet cases into the 17AH FL die until it would just chamber in the 17AH chamber. I fit it to where the shoulder had DEFINATE 'crush' or I should say, 'firm contact' with the chamber's shoulder. I then loaded and fired the die formed ammo, which fireformed into a perfect case. The neck would be slightly different length but the first trimming took care of that, or else I just didn't worry about the slight uneveness of the neck.
THEN I would anneal the case as all that remained was to once again load it with no body sizing necessary, just neck sizing.
The die formed case looked a bit funny but amazingly most 17AH shooters find those die formed, yet to be fire formed cases were as accurate as a fire formed round!
Thanks for the input guys! BTW, that fireing 30/30 ammo to get a .357 round [after case die forming a bit] sounds like fun but expensive. I'm going to have to try a round or two as I'm curious as to what a fired ' too long' case looks like.