I attended an update/refresher course for we hunter safety instructors..

[ironglow]

  Attended last night:
  New rules coming out for air rifles in New York state. Air rifles are being accepted for small game hunting rabbits, squirrels etc.
  Only qualifying factor: ...must be capable of 600 fps.
   A reminder..which I was unfamiliar with..the 500 foot rule applies to air rifles also...(At least 500 ft from occupied building, unless permitted by occupants).

[dave]

600 fps means nothing as far as qualifying for hunting. Any air rifle can fire a projectile at 600 fps if you use real light ammunition. Its the generated energy thats important. A 3 gr pellet launched at 600 fps (2.4 ft/lbs) would be pretty much useless. A 10 gr pellet at the same velocity (8 ft/lbs) would be much more suitable. A 15 gr pellet at 600 fps (12 ft/lbs) is about the minimum you'd want for small game such as squirels, rabbits or woodchucks.

[ironglow]

Dave;
  I know that..you know that..but the laws are made by legislators, who often know very little..

[jamaldog87]

my 760 goes faster than that and so does my 66.  Both have killed game for me with 7-8gr pellets with head shots.

There is no .177 or many .22cal airguns that can shoot a 15 gr pellet at all also i have never seen a .177 15gr pellets.  really were you shoot is were it's at. I have killed many rock doves(Pigeons) with steel bb with a head shot so it comes down to were you shoot.

from the beeman giude on airguns

                           177cal(7.9)   22cal(14.3 gr)

1. sparrow,mice       325  (FPS)            250  (FPS)
2.starlings,rats      400                 300
3.crsows, pigeons    550              425
4.rabbits,squrrels    650                500


Crosmas 1    2   3   4
760   70  45  10  (yards)

2100    75   35   15

2200     75 60  35

22x     75   75  45  20
880  75    65   25

I had a crosman 2200mag that shoots a 14gr pellet at about 600FPS. I kill nutras,beavers, and coons at 30 yards with this gun useing Crosman Field Hunting .22 Cal, 14.3 Grains, Pointed pellets. So it can be done. One time i killed a racoon under a car with a .177 760 used pointed pellets. Always with head shots.

[ironglow]

  Right you are Jamal;
     Power is no substitute for poor shot placement..

[dave]

There is no .177 or many .22cal airguns that can shoot a 15 gr pellet at all

Actually, there are many that can and will with no problem. I sometimes use 23.7gr Eun Jin pellets in my .20 Sharp Ace and Sheridan rifles. My Diana 54 shoots .22 cal 18.2 gr Crow Magnums quite well.

The point here is not backyard plinking at sparrows and garbage can raiders, its actual legal hunting with a license and the regulations that say what you can do and what you can't.  That Beeman info is misleading. Those numbers might be the minimum to do the job but when you are hunting for real you don't want to use  a gun that is borderline. You want plenty of power, enough so that you don't have animals running off to die hours or days later. Legal power requirements for hunting should be well above the good Dr Beemans numbers, which are questionable at best. A .22 cal 14.3 gr pellet launched at 500 fps is only 8 ft/lbs at the muzzle. At 10 yards, its down to 471 fps (7 ft/lbs), at 30 its at 418 (5.5 ft/lbs). Not really a good power level for hunting.

[jamaldog87]

then i guess all the guns out there that have been use for hunting are not doing it cleanly.  As i said before if its a head shot then most guns well do it.  Sure those very heavy pellet can be shot but the runge/power is very short. The 23.7gr Eun Jin were made for the very high powerd PCP guns that are almost/ sometimes more powerful then real 22LR.  yes those numbers are the  minimum but look at were it says for the pumper guns. The max range for the crosman 2200 (600fps)mag and diasy 22x(550fps) for rabbits and squrrels is 35 yards with a 14.5gr pellets. the Benjamin Discovery .22 Cal,  Hollowpoint pellet which were made for that gun are 14.3 Grains becuase it give you the best power/range and most guns will shot it very well. Even the Predator pellest which by many are the best hunting pellets in the world are only .2 16.0 Grains the Predator Big Boy are 26grs and are made for the very high powerd PCP guns(800fps+ in .22cal).  If used in a lower powerd guns They fly slower, patterns are wider, and sometimes you lose  accurate.

I had a Benjamin Discovery but sold it cuase i did not need that much power. the Eun Jin pellest are mark as this :Best performance with AirForce Condor, Evanix, Sumatra, Sam Yang and Shinsung airguns "  with airguns it comes down to accurate and shot placement more then power, even with a AirForce Condor some game it has to be a head shot.  Read the Total Airguns: The Complete Guide to Hunting with Air Rifles or AMERICAN air rifle book. Both give you good info on airgun hunting.

rember this too. British Fire Arm Certificate. The maximum FAC rating for any air pistol is 6fp (8.13J) or rifle in the UK is 12fp (16.27J). The majority of British and European air pistols and rifles are designed to this limit and they kill much game with there airguns becuase they have very good shot placement. UK power limit of 12 ft lbs = 600 fps - .22 and 800 fps -.177 (approximately)
 
The paramount aspect of hunting air rifles is acceptable downrange accuracy. If you can't hit your target, no amount of super pellet energy or "penetration" is going to do you any good. you need about  one-inch accuracy at 20 to 30 yards for most fur game with airguns.

[scout4]

Hey Great!!...600fps is'nt hard to deal with, most if not all of the hunting airrifles that I know of would shoot at least 600fps, and with the hunting pellets available a good hunter should be able to take small game without to much a hitch. Seems New York state has some good stuff for the hunters, I sure would like to see Pennsylvania allow high power airrifles for small game. Keep up the good work ironglow! Thanks! scout4<><

[ironglow]

Scout;
  You may want to check your rule book. Until now, we could use an airgun when we are culling out "nuisance" critters, perhaps chipmonks or red squirrels. I am our local cemetery curator and I have used the air riufle on "nusiance" chipmonks. Man; do they make holes in and around the monuments !
  Of course, I have also cut down the groundhog population around the periphery of the cemetery..2 in the last week. For that task, I like to use .22LR  with either subsonics or the WW Xperts, both of which I do the "ball point pen trick" with.

[scout4]

Thanks ironglow, I'll check it out....What is the ball point pen trick? Thanks! scout4<><

[ironglow]

  Scout;
  Especially for short ranges, the old ball point pen trick works well, in fact they mushroom better at almost any range. The factory can only put so much work into each round and still compete cost wise, so often their hollow points are a bit shallow or narrow to my liking.
  I simply put each round on it's base on a table and press a good, metal point pen into the hollow point and ream it around as if I'm enlarging a post hole. Dynapoints and Federal bulk don't work well for this because their hollows are too shallow.
  For CYA..I'm not saying you should do it, but it works great for me..
  1) Method of reaming.
  2) From top to bottom Mini-Mags, Rem Golden and WW Xperts. To the right of the pen, original ..to the left of the pen, reamed larger. Hard to make a really good, clear photo.

[scout4]

Thanks ironglow! I had a hunch you were using the pen for reamin a hollow point. Good trick! Thanks!...Have you noticed, and it sure seems this way to me, that a well made hollow point can be more accurate than a solid point? I tell ya, I've shot alot of different projectiles, ie; muzzleloader bullets, rifled slugs, airgun pellets, and 44caliber centerfire cartriges from an old marlin lever action and the hollow points always shot the best, I always got the best accuracy with those bullets/pellets. scout4<><