Author Topic: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets  (Read 2771 times)

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Offline Veral

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Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« on: March 05, 2010, 07:56:01 PM »
  No one has asked on this forum about lead and lube smoke, and today I was pondering why not, so I decided to write a bit about it, as many who I talk to personally talk about it with some concern.

  Lead vapor should be a concern of anyone who shoots lead indoors or even outside if they shoot very much.  It is caused ONLY if the gun is leading or real close to it.  The lead vapor is molten lead which is created by bore friction, due to lube failure, when the lead which doesn't stick to the bore gets sprayed out into the atmosphere by the powder blast. 

  The most deadly situation comes when shooting large numbers of handgun rounds indoors where the vapors concentrate in the air, along with lube smoke, which I'll address next.  If you have ANY leading anywhere in the bore, stop it, and you'll be making no more lead vapors.  Gas checks can cause one to believe there is no lead vapor, but if the lube isn't doing it's job, even fairly light pistol loads will lead a bit, but the gc's shave it from the bore and spit it out, thus potentially hiding a lead vapor problem.  Most indoor pistol shooters will be using mild plainbase bullet loads, and most who I talk to use some cheap lube which leaves a bit of lead in the bore. (Again, the majority use a cheap, soft alloy along with cheap lube.)  Switch to LBT lube and you'll get no lead vapor.  -- There are several powders which have come out in the last 10 years which I have never used, but Hodgen Universal is the cleanest burning powder I've ever used, creating almost no visable smoke, (or fire) with light to fairly heavy pistol plainbase loads, when using LBT bullet lube.)

  When shooting heavy rifle loads with gas checked bullets, lead vapor will be lower with LBT lube than any other lube that I know of, but there will be some if you are pushing the accuracy threshold with maximum possible velocities.  In which case, if the wind isn't in your face, it will all be shot forward 20 feet and more with the powder blast.  For this reason, and to avoid breathing lube and powder smoke, I refuse to shoot into the wind at targets, because I think powder smoke is as irritating, and probably as toxic because of volume, as lube and lead smoke.  (I'm guaging my notions on how I feel after extensive shooting when the smells come back in my face, with heavy rifle and revolver loads.  I shot 16 hours a day, 6 days a week for several months when developing the LBT lubricants and bullet designs.  When I couldn't sleep nights because of stopped up nose and coughing up phlem, I knew I was breathing bad stuff!)

  Lube smoke, volume wise, varies dramatically with the type used.  Alox, which is the most common lube used, I believe, is one of the most serious offenders of all the lubes I've used.  First, the fumes are quite toxic.  But the huge volume of smoke is caused when the lube flings out off the bullet as it exits the muzzle, leaving a lube star when it's working right, and lead star when it's lubricating limit has been exceeded by pressure and velocity.  As the lube sprays out, the powder blast which passes the bullet vaporizes the lube into smoke.   LBT lubes will stay on the bullets during flight, at speeds to at least 2800 fps.  I believe there may be several other lubes which will stay on the bullet during flight, thus preventing this lube vapor problem, (There won't be a lube star on the muzzle if the lube you are using stays on the bullet.) but few will prevent leading at significantly higher velocities than Alox, so lead vapor can be as serious a concern as with alox.  Again, LBT lube will allow the highest velocity potential of any lube I know of with complete freedom from lead vapor, and coupled with minimal lube smoke, depending on the powder type used.

  Various powder types burn at various temperatures, with the hotter burning ones being stick powders, and flake in pistol powders, and coolest being ball powders.  I burn any powder I can lay hands on, cheap, or have on hand, but when buying powder, especially for rifles, I always try to get ball powder.  The flame temperature  difference makes a world of difference in throat erosion, which by the way, in my experiance, is just as serious with cast as with Jacketed when velocites are similar.  Based on what I've read, and heard from people more knowledgable on the subject than I, ball powders can give double the throat life with heavy rifle loads, and do far better with heavy revolver loads.  I've found that when using stick powders, with heavy rifle loads especially, more smoke is produced than when using ball, and I believe this is because of the high temperature gases sweeping the bore of lube residue.  I rarely give out theory, but this time I'm doing it based on flame tempereature facts, and the fact that more smoke is produced by the hot flame powders, which, also yield lower velocities before leading and inaccuracy stop development of heavier loads.
Veral Smith

Offline saddlebum

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2010, 09:21:53 PM »
Good article Veral, thanks! I couldn't agree with you more about Alox. It's almost like shooting black powder for smoke and smells worse. Breathing that stuff burns my throat and what a mess to clean up. I tried it when I first started reloading cast handgun bullets. I don't think I even used all I bought before I tried RCBS. Blue lube has made shooting much more pleasant. I had forgotton about the star at the end of the barrel till you mentioned it. The two RCBS molds I started with had pretty large lube grooves which made for a real smokey affair with Alox. It wasn't too long before I found out about LBT and Blue. We can thank Ross Seyfried for that.
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Offline Wiking

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 10:28:17 AM »
Yeah nice article. Quite strange that no one has asked that question before. I think it's because people haven't given lead/lube vapors much thought... it's my impression that the average caster is, if not concerned, than at least aware of the hazards involved with casting bullets, but it seems that few consider smoke a hazard. Luckily I almost never shoot at indoor ranges, all my shooting is done outside. However I have noticed from time to time that it is not pleasant to get lube smoke blown in your face.

For .38 special and 9mm (of which I shoot truck loads) I use my own lube made from beeswax, paraffin and vaseline one third of each! I works for my applications. For .30-30 and .357 I use LBT soft... which is a better lube, but like I said I shoot A LOT of 9mm and .38, and making my own is easier than ordering lube from across the atlantic! So I save the LBT blue for where I really feel it makes a difference... and that is out of my Freedom Arms!

Offline Veral

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 07:41:21 PM »
  If you want to juice your home made lube up a bit, melt in about 10%, by weight, of one of the LBT lubes.  You'll like what it does, at the target and when you start mining the lead out of your barrels.  Blue soft is the best one for this purpose.
Veral Smith

Offline Tommyt

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 03:56:29 PM »
Last night My first time ever tried to Lube cast Bullets with a 50/50 Bees wax to Alox

I did it on my Kitchen stove
How bad is this I messed up the whole Process and the Bullets and Lube didn't adhere
But
I really would like to know how Much damage I did to  myself and wife
I had all the windows open its was a nice night I never really got the mixture to completely Melt down and just poured
off what was in the Vessel Bottom

 Thanks
Tommyt

Offline Veral

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2010, 11:22:07 PM »
  Betcha both will live and neither have to see a doc because of it.  The stuff has been popular for years and I've never heard of anyone being actually poisoned by it.  By toxic, I mean it is detrimental to health, and I'm content it is worst when in a vapor as from powder gas blast.  As with anything that isn't good for us, the more often and the higher quantity we take in the more harmful it will be.  My biggest issue is it tears my sinus's up and makes my lungs hurt after extended use. (But the lung problem might be partly from getting out of wind when scrubbing the lead from the barrel.)
Veral Smith

Offline dakotashooter2

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2010, 06:32:03 AM »
I still wonder if some casters don't still place conveience over function when it comes to lube. Early on in my casting I got a too good to pass deal on what will be nearly a lifetime supply (for me) of Red Rooster lube. It being hard and me not having a heater I mixed it with some wax toilet rings (soft paraffin). I happened upon a mix that virtually eliminated leading however it is quite soft and messy. I suspect most guys would not be willing to deal with it but it works and thats what counts for me. Now your telling me I have to worry about the smoke it produces..........LOL !  Guess I could sell it and buy some LBT. ;D
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline Veral

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2010, 09:34:54 PM »
  A few years ago I got the crazy notion that I wanted to grow a handlebar mustache because a friend had a neat one.  So he gave me some of the wax he used to shape it.  Toilet bowl ring!   I tried it, and within an hour was trying to wash it out, which took at least two hours before the  --------------------  smoke and lead vapor was gone!
Veral Smith

Offline docmagnum357

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 03:23:21 PM »
What you are saying about lead vapor makes a lot of sense.  Also the Lube Ring or Star at the end of the muzzle.  I admit i get that every time... good case for switching to something that holds the bullet a little better.  I worry much more about the smoke from primers than i do from lead vapors from bullets.  I occasionally help a freind at his gunstore, and a young man came in one day, telling about getting really high lead levels in his blood after extensive shooting in a certain local indoor range.  They all shoot 38 super, 9mm, and 45 with jacketed bullets.  I know ther is an arguement that the fmj type bullet is open in the back, but i for one think the idea that the powder can melt lead to any meaning full degree is ignorant.  Take a torch, propane, map, acetylene, and run it over  a piece of lead.  You can't melt it to any degree with passing it under the flame.  I feel the heat reuns out of the base and into the rest of the bullet too fast to actually melt or vaporize any of the lead.  Bore frictiopn, however, i am 100% with you there.
 

Offline Canuck Bob

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 03:48:08 PM »
Wow, thanks Veral for educating me/us on this issue.

Paper patching is getting more and more attractive.  With your GOP system eliminating the tedious nature of the traditional systems and your lube I believe I'm sold.  It would be a major chore for someone burning lots of pistol ammo but for my level of rifle usage it seems to make a lot of sense on many levels.

 

Offline Veral

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 09:41:54 PM »
  About burning powder melting the base of a lead bullet.  Ink the base of a bullet with a felt pen, fire it with a 60,000 psi load out of a rifle, which has a LONG burn time compared to a handgun, recover the bullet and youlll find the ink doesn't change color.  Heat the bullet and you'll find the ink will turn color, go brown, then go away before the lead melts.

  As for the lead vapor in a shooting range where all the shooters are using jacketed.  -- The lead vapor isn't from primers, which contain none in the priming compound, and it sure isn't melting off the exposed lead bullet bases.  My belief is that they are slamming them into a steel back stop or bullet trap.  Lead bullets disintegrate on impact with steel, and I've read that the lead actually melts, and solidifies immediately, though I don't have scientific proof of that.  I suppose it does melt, but if not, no matter, fragmenting lead throws large amounts of extremely fine lead dust into the air.  I shot a lot into a steel bullet trap with 22LR ammo, from a 6 inch barrel semi auto, many years ago, and an amazing amount of lead dust came out of it.  I was quite ignorant of the lead dust problem back then, and always left the shop immediately after shooting anyhow.  I had the trap in a machine shop where I worked, and shot up at least one box of ammo each evening if I wasn't in a rush to get home, and sometimes two boxes or more.  My practice was rapid fire mostly, so a stream of 10 rounds whacking into the trap in maybe 3 seconds made the lead fly.
  That was just a 22 LR.  Larger caliber handgun bullets hitting with more energy would be worse if the nose of the bullet had exposed lead.  Full jacketed might not splatter if the jacket were a real formed jacket.  If a Speer plated bullet, the plating has almost no effect in holding lead together on impact, though it does a good job of keeping lead off the bore when fired.
Veral Smith

Offline ND Sharpshooter

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2010, 05:05:28 AM »
Veral, what you said about lead melting on impact with steel targets is right on.  Years ago the IHMSA (International Handgun Silhouette Association) had a picture of this phenomenum on the front page of one of their publications.  I don't remember how "scientific" the whole deal was.  I remember the articale atated that the melted lead particles freeze almost instantly.  I've seen the "dust" cloudlet many times when shooting steel targets with .223's and other light recoiling rifles...this, even with fmj bullets.  .
Never said I didn''t know how to use one.  :wink:

Offline calvon

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2010, 05:00:10 PM »
Not so long ago primers were made with lead styphnate. Are they still made that way, or has the chemistry been changed?

Offline Veral

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2010, 09:45:14 PM »
  Priming compound was made with a mercury compound, prior to the lead, I believe, but from what I understand neither are used now.  But I'm not up on this so if anyone knows the facts as to what is currently being used for priming compound please make them known.

  The reason I believe lead styphnate was discontinued, was the big boom about trying to remove lead from everything starting in the early 1970's.  For some time the government was even forcing people which homes close to heavy traffic roads to remove the top several inches of dirt from their yards, hauling it somewhere and dumping it back on the earth, then replacing with clean dirt.   At the same time the lead water mains which supply water to all the older parts of cities were left in place and are still in service, with no toxic concern.  A customer in MO tol me that in his area they had trouble getting water because they had to drill, on his property, 40 feet through nearly solid lead, which gummed the drills up.  But when they could get through the water was considered safe to drink.  --  I know an area in Arizona where the aluminum content of the soil is 400 pounds per ton of farm soil, but it causes no problem in the crops grown.  The key reason as to why neither heavy lead or aluminum concentrations cause toxity in things grown on that soil is PH level.  When PH is right for good growth both and all heavy toxic metals are tied up in the soil and unavailable to plants.
  I wrote all the above just to spread a few facts about lead toxity, which aren't well known.  Of coarse the above has nothing to do with the lead toxity which this post is about.  Lead vapors from shooting are a completly different critter, as is lead dust that is consumed and hits the acidity of the stomach, where it is converted into forms which are toxic to the body.   So wash your hands well after handling your cast bullets, before eating.
Veral Smith

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 01:42:43 PM »
Throw my .02 in here. ND Sharpshooter, you hit it pretty close. During my 20 some odd years shooting IHMSA, learned alot. Many years ago, Sierra bullets actually did some short video's on what happens when a bullet hits steel. It ignite's, much like the Magnesium in an old flash bulb. Depending on how fast the bullet is traveling when it hits the steel target. If you ever set such targets, you will notice that the bullet impact will have a star shape. This will depend on how many grooves there are in the bullet. Jacketed bullets especially. If your barrel has 5 lands and grooves, you'll get 5 leg's of lead, spreading out from the impact. Much like a spider web. That will be your higher velocity rounds.(T/C's in 7tcu, and the like. Or XP100's in 7br or 7-08) Your slower revolver rounds just leave a bigger sploch on impact.
The Sierra video's show the bullet exploding, causing the flash, that looks like the bullet ignited. Which, I'm sure, puts lead particle's in the air, no matter how good the ventalation system is. That's why you see more and more indoor ranges going to the chopped up rubber backstop. Bullets don't explode, just get buried in the ground up rubber compound. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Veral

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 07:19:11 PM »
  Thanks gypsymen!  This is what I read quite a few years ago but couldn't remember well enough to tell it right.
Veral Smith

Offline docmagnum357

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Re: Smoke and lead vapor from cast bullets
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 04:58:55 PM »
I  agree, guys, especially about the pen and markong the base of a bullet.  One more thing, and it tends to support the flash thing, is that I save .22 lr ammo that my students qualify with.  It can get to be  a pretty good amount of lead after a mnth or two.  I notice that the "lead dust" doesn't melt at the same temp as the chunks of lead.  I believe it is oxidized somehow(burned, like in a flash) into another compound.  I switched to a sand trap, and now recover almost all my lead,and recycle int 45 acp or 44 mag bullets.I don't know how much I lost, but i know it was considerable.  about 11 bullets make an ounce, 176 make a pound, it doesn't take long to get a batch for big stuff. Always took forever with dust taken into account.

     We sure have an interesting hobby.  Physics, metalurgy, chemestry, magneto hydrodynamics, biology, all rolled into one, and none definite, fully explored or settled on most points.  and Verals book aside, most of it is in people's heads. I am teaching a basic reloading class next Saturday.  I can't wait to get six more people hooked on the most fascinating hobby I know.