problems with a mod 70 shadow 223wssm

[sabbatus]

i have a mod 70 shadow 223wssm.   having lots of trouble with it.  with any load the bolt is very stiff to operate, opening or closing.  even on a empty chamber the bolt is very stiff.  once the gun get the slightest bit warm the bolt is almost impossible to close or open.  Also it shows headspace or pressure signs with every load even the light ones,  which i know are still lots of pressure in this caliber.  upon full inspection i found the firing in protrusion hole to be tapered and seems out of square, and some machine marks in the bolt face.  Upon contacting winchester customer service they said that since they no longer chamber anything in any wssm cartridge ( due to all the troubles with the cartridge according to the rep i spoke with) that if i return the gun to them and they find anything wrong they will issue me a credit toward the purchase of a new rifle, and that the primer blow back and very stiff bolt operation are a inherent problem with this caliber and to be expected.  i dont think that not being able to open the bolt on a fired round that is within saami spec should be acceptable.  has anyone delt with winchester on this type of issue.   ive posted some pics of spent shells and the bolt face so you guys can see what i am talking about.  thanks in advance for any help or ideas

[sabbatus]

here is the pics

[sabbatus]

the bolt face

[LONGTOM]

I use to have one but IMO they are a piece of junk!
I am a devoted Winchester man.
If they built one with a bent barrel I would have to try it.
Is the ammo pics of reloads or factory?
If factory, send it back!
If reloads, they most likely won't do anything but say it is your reloads that is causing the problem.

Sometime back I posted about the 223wssm.
Although I never had the troubles you are having I found that they are just built with to light a barrel.
I only shot factory ammo through it but you could only get 2 shots out of it before the barrel would heat to the point that you could not hold your hand on it after the third shot.
Two shots inside a nickle and the third would open to 1.5".
A fourth would make it 2".
The bolt would be stiff after the fourth.
Never shot any more in a row.
Two shots might be OK for a deer rifle but not for a varmint rifle.
After not quite 2 boxes of ammo I dumped it.
I replaced it with a Win coyote in 243wssm and it is a much nicer rifle.
I love my Winchesters but they really missed it with the shadows.

If it is a new gun I would take it back where I bought it and get my money back.
Hate to see someone having trouble with a Win.
They are good guns, except for the shadows and super shadows.

Let us know how it all works out.



LONGTOM

[Slowpoke Slim]

There are a couple of "issues" with the WSSM brass. Per design, it is waaayyyy too thick walled in the body and neck area. This was from Olin taking a "shortcut" and just taking WSM brass and forming it down to WSSM length. That's it, that's how they make the WSSM brass. Well that thickens it up pretty badly. If you measure the neck thickness of your 223 WSSM brass, it should measure around 20 to 22 thousanths thick. Now measure the neck thickness of just about any other bottle neck rifle case you can get your hands on. They usually measure between 12 and 16 thousanths. That my friend is a huge difference.

The other issue with the brass is that it's HARD, really hard. That's a bad combination in my opinion.

Short of selling the rifle or rebarreling, here's the "fix":

First, you need to anneal your cases. There's plenty of info out there about case annealing if you're unsure on how to do it. The annealing process takes the hardness out of the brass in the neck shoulder area, but must be carefully done so not to soften the brass in the case head and web area.

Once you've annealed your brass, then FULLY full length resize it and "cam over" your press. Meaning, turn the die down all the way until it touches the shell holder, and then turn it in another quarter to half a turn. This "cams over" the linkage on the press, and you will get additional sizing of the brass.

You need to do this to set the shoulders back on all your brass. Do this AFTER annealing.

BTW, Federal brass is supposed to be slightly thinner, and a bit softer than Winchester brass. I never tried any Federal brass myself.

Also, check out this website:

http://wssmzone.com/main/default.aspx

It's dedicated to the WSM/WSSM's. I used to post over there a bit years ago, when I had a 25 WSSM.

[sabbatus]

slim thanks for the tip on annealing and this is something i am very familiar with, however i do believe that this is a bolt face problem and/or a bit of excessive headspace.  i talked to winchester today and they really werent much help.  the info i got from the rep i spoke with is that i have to send the rifle to them and depending on what they find they might replace the bolt, or issue a credit toward the purchase of a new gun.  but they couldnt tell me anything more than that or even the amount that they would credit in the event that they wont fix it. But that probably would issue the credit since they are no longer producing any ssm cartridge due to the problems mentioned before

[Slowpoke Slim]

Well if you send it to them, I wouldn't expect to see it again. They don't have any parts for the wssm's. They made them on their own action size, and since they don't make any wssm chamberings anymore, they don't have parts to pick from. You could also ask them if they would consider swapping you for a Browning A bolt.

Way back when I bought my wssm, the first one I bought was a 243 wssm. It was a stealth 2, and it had a bad barrel in it. After bore scoping it to determine the barrel was junk, I sent it back to USRAC. They called me (this was right when they were shutting down the plant) and told me that the only 2 stealth 2's they had left were a 22-250 and a 25 wssm. They also told me I could pick any Browning A bolt I wanted in 243 wssm. I really liked the stock on the stealth 2, but like an idiot I picked the 25 wssm over the 22-250.

It was only after I started loading for the 25 wssm that I found out how "unique" the cartridge was. If I'd have known then, I would have picked the 22-250, and probably still have it now.

I've seen for myself and talked to other wssm shooters with the exact same problems you were describing. The very first handloads I ever tried in my 25 wssm were "middle range" loads in the data, and the first shot I almost had to beat the bolt handle open. Plus I had 6 thousanths case head expansion! Needless to say I only shot 1 of each of 3 different loads, and went home and pulled them all. Thus I started reading and learning about the wssm's.

Your neck tension is way, way too high. That causes pressures to come on very quickly. If you try to download the pressures, then with the thick and hard brass, it doesn't seal, and you get primers backing out and sooty necks. Trust me, I've been through it.

Unless you're already done messing with it and ready to throw in the towel, just TRY the annealing and camming over FL resizing on a batch of brass. Also check your trim length, the wssm's grow pretty fast the first couple of firings.

How many firings do you have on your brass? Do you have any unfired brass or factory ammo to test chamber?

Go on over to the guys at wssmzone and talk to some of them. They're a good bunch of guys, say "Hi" to Camowildcat for me, he's an old timer over there and may remember me.

I very much doubt that there's anything wrong with your rifle at all. Yes both my wssm's had machine marks on the bolt face. It doesn't make them pretty, but it doesn't cause these problems. Work on your brass. Or, SELL the rifle over at wssmzone. There's a classifieds section there, and I'm sure someone more familiar with the brass situation will snap it up from you if you price it right.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I found this original thread, from when I discovered the "fun" of the wssm:

http://forums.wssmzone.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=80&whichpage=1

It's an older thread, from when I started posting over there, but the information is still as relevant today as then. It's an informative read if you can get through it all.

[gunnut69]

The damage to the primers looks to be the fault of the damaged firing pin hole.. A close look at you pics show oversized FP hole. It's also oblong and funneled. It also appears that the surrounding area may have yeilded a bit and created an angled surfcce for the primer to impact.. DO as you will but I'd send it back to Winchester and get the voucher.. These are unique actions/rifles and are poorly designed. Good luck..

[243dave]

Nothing wrong with the design but the execution of the rifle and cartridge is lacking.  Throw away the winchester brass, go to graff & sons and get the federal brass, its not as thick and cheaper.  I had pressure problems even with factory winchester ammo(necks are way to thick) but the federal brass cured it.  My 223wssm featherweight is a pretty little gun but its no moa shooter,  more like a 2 moa shooter.  If I hadn't given it to my boy for his birthday it would have been gone a long time ago.  But he likes it and loaded with barnes x bullets it hammers deer out to a couple hundred yards.    Dave 

[sabbatus]

well im going to try the annealing and look into turning the necks.  how much neck tension should i end up with to keep pressures down yet still hold the bullet tight enough,  as sized the necks are .219-.220 in diameter with a wall thickness of.019-.020.  i am thinking that a larger expander ball might also help, maybe size the brass to .221 or .222      thanks alot

[Slowpoke Slim]

Yes, your neck tension is about what I'd thought it would be. .004 to .005 is pretty high tension even without the extra thick necks, but with the .019 to .020 thick necks, it's like a vise grip. I'm sure this is where your pressure issues are from. It's quite typical for the wssm's.

For starters, start with an annealed piece of brass, then do the full "cam over" resize in your FL die. You've got to set those shoulders back, and get that brass softer. Then test chamber this piece of brass. It should go in with an easy bolt close at this point. If this is true, then proceed with the rest of the brass the same way. If it doesn't, then you're not getting that shoulder set back, and screw the FL die in further.

As for neck turning, once the brass is annealed, you don't need to take off much brass in the necks, say down to around .016 to .018. Bear in mind your chamber is cut for brass dimensions in the .020-.022 range. If you take off too much, then firing and resizing "works" the necks a bunch and your neck life will be short. If you anneal your brass every 2 to 3 firings, this will help your brass life. I went with bushing dies on my brass and used the bushings to set my neck tension. With the thick necks, I would not want any more than .002 tension in a sized neck (that's still gonna be on the tight side). That should be plenty of tension for bullet grip in the magazine and feeding, etc. You may even find that .001 works fine for you.

So, if you set your turned neck thickness to, say .018 for example, then:

.018 + .018 + .224 = .260

That's 2 thicknesses of neck diameter, for across both sides of the neck, and bullet diameter.

If you go with .002 for neck tension, then you'll want a bushing diameter of .258

I would go with .001 for neck tension myself, which would give you a bushing of .259

Either way, you'll want to pick up a couple of bushings on either side of your "target" diameter, just for tuning purposes, so you'll want .257, .258, .259, and .260

Bear in mind, as the brass hardens, from resizing and firing, you'll need to adjust your neck bushing size to compensate for the difference in tension. Thus you'll want to anneal your brass every 3 to 4 firings at the least. You should be able to "feel" the tension when you seat your bullet in the case.

[sabbatus]

i want to thank you guys for the info,  finally got around to annealing the cases and turned the necks down to 17 thousandths thickness.  the initial test were a world of difference.  the bolt operated much more freely, accuracy was amazingly better but not really tested yet.  with the "new " brass i set up three test loads of three rounds each.  using 50 gr speeer tnt and imr 4064 i loaded starting load, mid load and a max load.   all operated smoothly and groups were shrunk to perfectly acceptable.  Now its to the drawing board to, i want to get a good load set up for the 60 gr. nosler partition

[243dave]

Glad you got it working for you.  Keep us updated how it goes with the load development.  When time comes for some more brass check out the federal brass, its twice as cheap and made my pressure problems go away too boot.  http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/641   By the way are you gonna use the 223wssm for deer?  They seem to do well with premium bullets.    Dave 

[sabbatus]

deer and any varmint that walks in the road,  thats why i am wanting to get the partition shooting good.  my best friend will  be hunting deer with this rifle.  i think it will work good as her small frame doesn't handle recoil well at all.  i prefer to shoot the bigger critters with the big slow bullets from my 45/70