Difference between semiautos

[Stuart C.]

It's probably just me but I find it hard to figure out ALL of the differences between pistol models from brand to brand or even within brands.  For example, I know that a 1911 offers a single action trigger pull, but don't know which 'new' models from Ruger or S&W are double action only or traditional double action.  And then differences between safeties .

Could someone list the pros and cons of these models?  I'm trying to get a handle on what modern options are out there that people consider MUST HAVES.

Ruger P Series
Ruger LCP
S&W M&P

Thanks!!

[williamlayton]

Good question and a good discussion.
Insemi-autos you will find THREE variables and some sub-variables in them.
Most folks think about 1911's as being Single action only--they must be hand cocked to fire the first round,
There are S/A-D/A semi-autos--these are not 1911's:
Some in this group are species of Sigs, Walthers and a number of others,
Some are S/A only with out a means of cocking:
In this group are some Sigs, ALL Glocks, andnumbers of others.
Others familar with the three you mentioned should chime in.
Blessings

[mcwoodduck]

I tried to post something earlier similar to what William said better.
You have three different gun types listed.
Of the Ruger P series they are mostly delayed blowback and come in different calibers (9X19, 357 Sig, 40S&W, and 45 ACP)
As well as different barrel lengths and construction.  Aluminium frames as well as plastic (polymer). 
Most use a combo safety / decocker.  the lever on the slide is either a
safety / decocker when depressing the decocker it will lower the hammer and while engagued it acts as a safety.
Decocker / some models do not have a safety and only a decocker (sigs come to mind) but I think some of the rugers do as well.
And finaly a safety only.  this is on the Double action only models.
The S&W M&P line also uses a Delayed blowback and comes in the same calibers.
I am basing what I am baout to type on the Sigma Series and I think the M&P is just a modernized Sigma.
It is a striker action.  the safety is in the trigger.  You need to depress the center of the trigger to allow the trigger to go back and release the striker.
OK Pros -  Striker, single action and Duble action only - the trigger is the same from 1st round from the holster to the last.
Striker and single action- Con you get one pull at the trigger per round.  If you have a heavy primer you need to eject it.  With a hammer gun you can pull the trigger agin and see if that will set off the round as you are about to shuck the round out.  Some also see this as a con.  Pros and Cons will depend on who you ask and what features they think are important.
Personally- I think of a handgun as a hammer.  While there are all kinds of hammers and each has thier plus and minus depending on the job you have to do all will bang in a nail.  A sledge will do it but will be messy and hard to swing.  A finnishing hammer will do it but you need 30 whacks with it.
I do not know the LCP other than it is a small 380 polymer framed pocket gun.  I think it is a strait blow back buit don't hold me to that.
I like 380 and have a small P230 sig that I carried in VA.  Not sure what you want the gun for.
But what ever it is.  I would look at what gun best fits your needs, and get the one that you personally like, can afford as well as a few hundred rounds of ammo.  You are not going to get good with what ever handgun you buy if you can not afford the ammo to go in it.

[spruce]

It's not just you - there are a confusing number of models and variants within models out there!

Addressing your list:  Ruger P series - These are what are known as double action.  Engaging the safety after chambering a round also automatically lowers the hammer.  To fire, disengage the safety and pull the trigger.  First shot is a long double action stroke, on subsequent shots the hammer stays cocked and the trigger pull is a short single action, until you again engage the safety to lower the hammer.
There were some P-series pistols made that were double action only (meaning EVERY shot is a long double action stroke as the hammer follows the slide into battery on every cycle - and there is no safety), but I don't think Ruger offers this option anymore.
Ruger LCP - Basically a long double action type pull everytime.

S&W M&P - This has what I can only describe as a "Glock type" trigger pull.  The trigger pull is between a long double action type and a true single action type.  It's shorter and (usually) lighter than double action and longer and (usually) heavier than single action.  On most pistols of this type there is no external safety.
After chambering a round the striker is partially cocked, pulling the trigger finishes cocking the striker and then releases it to fire the chambered round.  The trigger pull is the same for every round, first to last.

[Fotto]

Must Haves?  Hmmmm

1 Must be comfortable with it.

2 Must have practiced with it.

3 Must have it with you.

And

4 Must go bang when you pull the trigger.
 

[Curtis]

Up until a few years ago I was unfamiliar with simi-auto pistols and therefore not very comfortable with them.  I was leaning toward a double action revolver as my first defensive hand gun for that reason.  I wanted a simi-auto pistol but like you I was confused by all of the different configurations.  I finally settled on a Smith M&P Compact because it lacked all of the confusing (to me) array of controls, decockers safeties etc....   It has a slide release and a mag release, period .........oh, and a trigger of course  .  It stays in only one condition so there is never any doubt; I keep it ready to rock and roll with one in the pipe.  It is always in a holster to shield the trigger even when tucked between the seat cushions in my truck.  Basically it is an "all business" tool and I treat it with the respect it deserves.  I do not let my friends handle it at all.  Fellow shooters will not be invited to handle it until I know that they are religious at "indexing" (keeping their finger out of the trigger area until ready to fire).  All of the previous comments on the M&P are correct to the best of my knowledge; it is striker fired, etc.......  I like my M&P Compact and it is very accurate and easy to shoot.

On the other hand, the next pistol I ended up with was a Bursa Thunder 380.  It is the double action type and I hate it.  For one, I'm not always certain what condition it is in because there are several possible combinations, and interestingly enough "cocked and locked" is not possible.  The safety is a decocker and it never fails to scare me when it drops that hammer.  I absolutely hate this pistol (I think I mentioned that).

Recently I got my first 1911 and I'm really getting comfortable with it.  I like "cocked and locked" with one in the tube, especially since the thumb-break on my leather holster acts as an extra safety to keep the hammer from falling.  For me the single action exposed hammer cocked with the safety on is easy for me to wrap my mind around.  With practice I don't think I'd ever forget to sweep the safety in a pressure situation, but who knows?

I know that the M&P will be ready when I am so I guess I'm most comfortable with that style.  It just takes a bit more caution I guess.

Curtis

[Stuart C.]

Thanks for all the great input.

This is exactly what i'm trying to avoid....

I'm not always certain what condition it is in because there are several possible combinations 

So, on one extreme, we have cocked and locked with a grip safety AND a thumb safety with the 1911.  On the other we have a M&P, no buttons or levers, just pull the trigger. 

One last question.  Where does Beretta 92 and Walthers fall in terms of these characteristics and ease of understanding for folks fairly new to semis?

Thanks again.

[Brett]

Some people like all of the safety features of a 1911 style pistol, i.e.; you can see if the hammer is cocked or not and the two mechanical safeties, (thumb safety and grip safety) give you a sence of more protection against ADs.    IMO external safeties that must be manipulated before the gun will fire could be cumbersome in a high stress situation.  I can not tell you how often I've seen people at the range attempt to take their first shot with the safety still engaged.   I sometimes do it myself when shooting my Ruger MKII and that "what the... oh yeah" moment could waste critical seconds in a life or death situation.

I'm not sure why many folks are so leery of modern DA only pistols.  Maybe it's because whenever a DA is reported in the news the fool with the gun always blames the gun. "I don't know what happened... I just went to adjust my belt" or "I was just showing the gun to my friend and the gun just went off all by it's self."   Horse hockey!  Won't happen, can't happen, they somehow pulled the trigger plain and simple.
A DA pistol essentially operates the same as any DA revolver (one in the chamber ready to go at the squeeze of the trigger) but you seldom hear people getting all squeamish about DA revolvers.

I carry either a DA revolver or a DAO pistol daily and I have no fear of either of them going off by themselves.  I use proper fitting holsters and carry techniques so that the probability of my weapon accidentally being dropped are slim.  Heck I have taken spills with both the revolver and pistol on me, once even falling down a flight of stairs and not only did neither gun go off they never even fell out of place.

Of course one should practice and train as much as possible with whatever type of weapon they choose to carry for self defense.  This training and practice should involve presenting your weapon from your chosen place of concealment and the manipulation of any manual safety devices until it is engraved into your muscle memory.  This does not always have to involve live fire or live ammo.  In fact I strongly recommend practicing your presentation with an empty gun or inert rounds in the beginning until you are very comfortable drawing the gun and deactivating any manual safeties then reactivating the safety before returning the gun to concealment.  Which brings me to another observation I've made at the range. Some people pull their guns out of their range bag or holster, snick off the safety at the beginning of the shooting session then never touch it again until the end of the shooting session.  If you choose a weapon with manual safety devices I feel it is imperative that you practice using them each and every time the gun is drawn, set down, or holstered. 

Always remember the best safety is the 3 pounds of gray matter between your ears and always keep your booger hook of the trigger until you are ready to fire.   
     

[mcwoodduck]

One last question.  Where does Beretta 92 and Walthers fall in terms of these characteristics and ease of understanding for folks fairly new to semis?

Thanks again.

Easy.
Both work on a Delayed blow back action and are the same action.  If you look at the Berretta it is a double stack P-38 with a full length slide. 
They both have a decocking lever that will remove the firing pin tranfer and drop the hammer.  the decocking lever will act as a safety till disengaged and then you have a standard Single action / Double action.
Manual of arms.
With safety on.  Insert full mag.  Cycle the slide (if open close if closed Open and let slide home)
Insert gun into holster.
Draw fire arm, take safety off, Point gun at target, apply finger to trigger, take aim, and squeeze trigger till gun goes bang.
Once finished shooting  Remove finger from trigger, re- engauge safety, this will drop the hammer do not be afraid.  And carefully re holster the firearm.

[williamlayton]

Stuart
This IS NOT a statement made too second guess your intelligence or competence.
I carry---not at the same instance, obviously--Sigs, Walther, and 1911's.
It is up too the owner to become competent and aware--not the gun.
It is easy to do--it takes practice. Not all shooting practice--just practice.
Just handeling the gun--fooling with the controls until they become second nature---then taking these skills to the range and applying what you have learned by going thru drills that reinforce them.
I do this with all my weapons.
When I go too the range--seldom with more that two--I go thru these drills with the weapon unloaded--only TAKES A FEW MINUTES--then again when shooting.
Make a game of it--from each condition.
Then, when you are away from the range make a mental note of what you have with you.
It really is not as intimidateing as it sounds---and--IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
REMEMBER---the best safety device you have on a gun is YOUR trigger finger.
You can do it.
Blessings

[Stuart C.]

No, I understand.  I'm just trying to id the differences and weigh the pros and cons before I commit to one type or the other (or one type or the other FIVE types  ).  I just want to focus on one right now.  If there are practical advantages to one with more bells and whistles than a simpler type, I have no problem beginning the process of becoming innately familiar with them.  But if there are no practical advantages....

Thanks.

[Curtis]

Yes Stuart, I hope I did not turn you off to the DA/SA type with my negative comments about my Bursa.  Those are just MY observations based on my way of thinking.  Honestly, with one in the tube and the safety on, the only practical difference between it and my 1911 with regard to carry would be the first DA trigger pull and subsequent trigger pulls which would all be lighter SA pulls.

I am grateful to William for his encouraging comments, as they have made me aware that I need to work more with the Bursa so that I can depend on it and myself to work together if need be.  I'll have to hit the reloading bench and work up some loads though, because the shelves around here are still bereft of 380 ammo.

Regards,
Curtis

[Autorim]

Stuart,

As you are now familiar, there are many types of semi-autos with various control systems. I recommend you look at the Springfield XDM series before you buy - particularly now that they have introduced it in .45ACP. My only use for semi's is for defense. I have owned and no longer own 1911's, S&W M&P and various others. They are all fine pistols, but the XDM won out for me.

The XDM has a loaded chamber and striker cocked indicator that is easily felt in the dark as well as a rail. Mine are equipped with Streamlight light/laser combo units. Sure feels good having it in the night stand beside my bed.

Simple - aim - pull trigger - fire. No safety or gadgets to remember. Take down for cleaning is super easy.

Just something else to consider.

Ken

[mcwoodduck]

No, I understand.  I'm just trying to id the differences and weigh the pros and cons before I commit to one type or the other (or one type or the other FIVE types  ).  I just want to focus on one right now.  If there are practical advantages to one with more bells and whistles than a simpler type, I have no problem beginning the process of becoming innately familiar with them.  But if there are no practical advantages....

Thanks.

The bells and whistles are neat.  But how complex do you want a tool that you many need to save your life.
KISS is one of the better ideas.  why many people like revolvers.  Short manual of arms with a revolver. Load, close, holster, draw, Point, aim, pull trigger.  If no bang pull trigger again.
With an auto load mag, insert mag, cycle action to load round into chamer, (now comes the bells and whistles) Decock / activate manual safety / decock and either activate manual safety or not / Decock activating manual safety and disingauge safety/ or do nothing adn holster, draw, point, (remove safety)
aim and pull trigger.  If no bang.  Tap up on the mag (is it there) rack the slide, go back to grip, aim and pull trigger again.  More complicated.
I have a few different autos (sigs, S&W/ Glock, walther, Browning currently, but have owned many others) and use them for compitition but keep a revolver in the night stand.  In the middle of the night I do not want to have to think when under stress.

[williamlayton]

I tend too agree MC.
Blessings

[Autorim]

I tend to agree with MC. I have the XDM in the night stand, but also have revolvers stashed in other strategic places. I always like to shoot revolvers best.

[NickSS]

Personally I have pistols and revolvers in just about every operating category mentioned. Here is my take on the question. First if you are not buying it for defense but for some other purpose any of them will do as you have all the time in the world to shoot the thing.  In a defense situation, the less things that you need to think about the better.  If you are trained well and very familiar with your weapon any of them will work.  I for years use a 1911 Colt as my home defense gun.  I shot several hundred rounds a week out of it during those years and drilled myself on all the controls.  Then I got married and tried to teach my wife how to use it.  Well she shoots it well enough but has to be reminded about the controls.  Obviously this was not a good weapon for her.  The same was true of my other auto pistols which were all DA/SA types with safeties that stayed on. Plus the long DA pull was too much for her.  I used a slicked up S&W model 10 for quite awhile as my wife had no problem understanding that she only needed to point and pull the trigger.  Then I bought a Glock 17 and my Wife loves it.  The trigger pull is light and short and the gun goes bang everytime.  I have also shot and handled quite a few of the newer DA only pistols and find that if I were to choose a gun for a person who will not shoot the weapon often enough to become familiar with the controls/ different conditions of fire, and how to go from one to another depending upon mussel memory they are the ones I would choose.  I have tied the S&W M&P, Springfield HD, and the Glock.  All work similarly. Chamber a round and pull the trigger.  My curent home defence weapon is my Glock 17 and three DA revolvers stashed here and there.  I have thousht of replacing one of my revolvers with a Springfield HD 45ACP but have yet to buy it.