What's the reasoning in Super Heavy 45-70 loads?

[mechanic]

I have both the molds mentioned in this thread, one I traded from Flash and the other was in stuff my Dad had.  Now Pop's been dead a lot of years, and never owned a 45-70, so I'm sure he had some kind of special "thing" going on with his beloved Contender with a closet full of barrels, but I'm just glad to have the mold.

I load some hot loads to cause my brother anguish when we're at the range.  I usually put a red dot on the case so I don't grab one by mistake.  By hot, I'm not talking anywhere near redline, just hotter than I like to shoot them.

I push the hollow base bullets to 1500fps max, and usually load much milder (around 1350).

I can shove the hollow points quite faster without losing a shoulder.  When the recoil gets to 12 guage levels, I back off there.

Now if I was tough as Atlaw, I'd push that envelope but I'm a wuss since I had to get my shoulder surgically reattached....


I haven't killed a bunch of stuff with the 45-70 yet, but its my opinion, (sortal like noses, everybody's got one), that 1300 fps with a 405 grain bullet will kill most any critter.  Add 500 fps and it's liable to do in the shooter.........

[quickdtoo]

BB,

That's a great buy you're getting!!    I hear ya on the casting, I used to cast a lot of bullets, in fact I have that mold, it's one of the few I kept and is the last one I cast for test loads for the gunsmith to run thru my 45-120. I quit casting mainly due to health reasons, even under the best of conditions with plenty of ventilation, you're gonna breathe some bad stuff being that close to the pot and it being cumulative, I quit whilst I was ahead.  My Dad died of Alzheimer's and I have no doubt that all the welding and chemicals he was exposed to over his life as a mechanic had something to do with it, so I'm glad I quit running lead when I did.

Tim

[petemi]

Mentor Tim, thank you about the lead warning.  I was going to try to cast bullets.  Then I wondered about exactly what you are saying.  Can't say it's worth it in the "dead end".  I even use surgical gloves when reloading to minimize contact with lead.  They're cheap, tight fitting and toss them when you're done.

Pete

[bikerbeans]

And you can make ballon animals with the gloves but you might want to use new ones.

[petemi]

Tom, lets use new ones and set them up as 300 yard targets

Pete

[Swampman]

The lead doesn't get hot enough to be an issue.  The flux does smoke a bit.

[NFG]

Sorry AtlLaw...didn't mean to wake you.......just kidding...

Got the updated pieces and parts installed and my 45-120 BC put back together today...and the 720gr T-Rex turned down a thou...they slip right in like I know what'um'doon...4.32" COAL, not touching lands but seated even with the 3rd driving band from the bottom, 0.535"...they're so BAAAADDDDD looking, I'm almost afraid to pick one up.

Fired off 10 rounds with H4831, RL22 and 7828 powders...worked load up until the base expanded to filled chamber and the primer started to flattened out...didn't chrono...cases popped out so the pressure should be well in the safety zone.  I will post the case dimensions, Case Capacity, bullet specs etc., if someone has the software and is interested in working out the load data for themselves...but NO LOAD DATA AND NOT ON THE NET.

This is a very LONG bullet and has an SD  ~.480 which means it will penetrate and keep on going and going and going.

A high SD is one of the BEST REASONS for using a LARGE, HEAVY BULLET...you get deep penetration...lots of Kinetic energy doing it's thing... and thick hides, large bodies, heavy horn, thick,heavy boned skulls don't stop bullets of this ilk.

Recoil was in the 60 ftlbs range with my 13 lb rifle...definitely a BIG push rather than a sharp, hard slap and DEFINITELY NOT for AtlLaws 45-70 girly-men  ...hahahahahahaha...Just funning...Recoil is about like a 12ga, 3", 1 5/8 oz magnum duck/goose load in a 9 lb shotgun...not all that pleasant ,but tolerable.  I wasn't any worse for wear after the 10 rounds, but I shoot a lot of big bores and I'm highly recoil resistant up to around 125 ftlbs at least.

Muzzle energy is over 4500 ftlbs, BC is ~.450, 100 yd energy is over 3800 ftlbs...plenty good enough for sage rats.

There is a TON more potential with this bullet in a Ruger #1/3, but as is, you can get near 458 Lott performance in the Handi at NEF safe pressure.  The 45-120 has 20 gr MORE case capacity than the Lott, ~15% more, which keeps the pressures down while achieving similar velocities.

H4831 is the "fastest", then RL22 and finally 7282...*ROUGHLY* 2 grains more powder, each step, faster to slower to equal pressure and velocity.  I will chorno some of the loads as soon as the weather cooperates.

Beartooth has some very good information on their 525 Piledrivers and a video on the 525 Piledriver vs 12 water jugs....FAR OUT...but I don't think I would have stacked them on the back of MY pickup bed...you never know which way a bullet is going to go once it hits something hard.

You said a mouthfull Tim...I only shot lead bullets in pistols and 22's and ONLY when I couldn't get coated lead bullets or was forced into shooting lead for practice or was required to.  WHAT THE HECK am I doing shooting lead at this late date for?  DUH.

Luck

[bikerbeans]

Way off topic, but a little information on the properties and health effects of lead;

Literature supports Swampman statement regarding vapor phase lead.   The Vapor Pressure of lead at the melting point of lead, approx. 357 C, is almost zero.  Means virtually no lead in the gas phase is present over your pot unless you really crank up the temperature, say over a 1000 C.

Exposure to lead through the skin is not a viable route into the body.

One must eat lead, and quite a bit of it, to have an ingestion exposure as lead is not readily dissolved by stomach acid.  For kids ingestion is a problem because it takes far less lead exposure to result in nervous system damage than it does for an adult.

If you grid surfaces with lead paint then there is some potential respiratory lead exposure.

This all relates to pure lead, not sure what goes airborne when one boils off the impurities using flux.  There are lead compounds that are more problematic than pure lead but shouldn't be an issue in bullet casting.

During my working life I managed the cleanup of a couple of firing ranges and the soil sampling showed high concentrations of lead in the soil from the bench out for the first 10 yards or so.  My guess is you probably get more lead exposure firing cast bullets at the gun range then you do melting lead for casting.  There is apparently a fine spray of lead out of the muzzle that goes out in a 360, 3D pattern.  Wind blowing in your face, one would expect a little bit to come back in your direction.  The problem would be magnified in an indoor range unless they use a very good ventilation system.

Doctor & wife where not swayed by this information, "no soup lead for you!"

BB

[quickdtoo]

http://www.oem.msu.edu/userfiles/file/ABLES/LEAD%20HAZARDS%20FROM%20CASTING%20BULLETS-c07-10-09.pdf

Know lead properties:
Lead melts at 621°F. Fumes are released at 900°F. Lead can be breathed in and also settle on surfaces. Lead oxide (fumes mixed with air) forms a fine yellowish/brown dust. Even with good ventilation you have 100% chance of lead dust in your “Lead Area”. Good Hygiene and ventilation are the best way to reduce lead exposure. The main hazard activities involve hot lead – smelting, casting and handling dross (the contaminate residue that is skimmed off in the melting process).

[NFG]

Not only is lead hazardous to your health, but so are some of the other heavy metals associated with the mining and casting of lead...zinc, mercury, arsenic, gold, silver, platinum.  "Pure" lead still has a small percentage of the nasties unless you pay for the "lab" rated stuff...it is also a very low level radioactive material in modern produced stuff...to get really "pure" lead you gotta go back a few thousand years prior to the atomic testing era.  THAT information is a very good read also.

I worked at the Noranda mine above Park City, Utah for a short time.  They were alll for safety...if it was cheap...I was given plans to start construction of an addition to one of the crushing plants and shown the pile of steel I was to use...it was reclaimed bridge trusses covered with red lead paint, salvaged stuff from other areas of the mine covered with waste slag and other garbage from the mining/separation process, etc.  (Utah and Nevada is full of old lead/zink/silver mines.  Large portions of those two states should be put on the EPA's "Dangerous to life, Kep out" list.)

When I asked where was my venilated suit and helmet, repirator, gloves, certified fresh air compressor and all the rest, the foreman looked at me like I was from another planet.

He called in the "Safety" man who assured me it was completely safe to flame cut and weld on the material without any protection...I didn't even have to wear my hard hat.  I was outta there before lunchtime...I didn't like working underground anyway.

The problem is the very small amount required that causes the problems...Parts Per BILLION...and all the ways lead and the other constituents can get into the body...breathing, through the skin, eyes or other mucus membranes, on food, cigaretts, in the hair so you can pass it on to your family in the shower or sink, on clothes so you can pass it on while being washed in the washing machine with your children's and wife's cloths, through holding, touching, hugging the when you get finished from off your clothes.

Lead just isn't anything to mess with and I/we keep playing with it without hardly a thought.

For those who REALLY want to learn...get on the net and read all the "stuff" that comes up and try to wade through the BS put out by the lead industry.

At least wear a respirator rated for lead, a full body including head, disposable Tyvec suit, gloves, and be in a well venilated area WELL AWAY frome other people when you do your casting.

Luck AND be safe.

[petemi]

It's gotta be safer to buy bullets and load em using disposable gloves and shower well afterward.  We all gotta die sometime, but why push it.  A buddy of mine died recently of lung cancer.  Hadn't collected his first Social Security Check at 62.  Spent 25 years in a body shop.

Pete

[manatee1947]

I have been casting and reloading now for 43 years. I have never had any tests show any problems. I worked for years in industry where there was zero protection, practically bathed in acetone daily, and except for hearing loss , have no problem. I now work in an extremely quiet and pollution free environment...... and my eyes are shot from staring at a computer screen for 20 + years (like now). If you are so worried about lead exposure, you had better wear SPF80 sun block, never travel in an automobile, etc etc. I wear heavy gloves because burns are immediate, I wear sleeves, no shorts, and leather shoes. I also wear safety glasses against spatteres. It seems that the extra protection, time, expense, and difficulty that some here report would negate any benefit and savings from casting. A fan and handwashing will take care of 99+ % of any danger from lead , this is a red herring that will be used in the not too distant future to try to wipe out the ammo industry. California already has gone "lead free" basically, and the feds already have the waterfowl ban on lead shot. If it is a public venue where blinds are occupied almost every day, and hundreds of rounds fired daily, for decades---there might be a point to that, I agree. If it is private, where a couple boxes of shells a year is shot over 40 acres of land with a 5 acre pond, that is crap. I guarantee that your danger of heart attack from excitement if you see a really big buck is a much greater risk than all your reloading.

[gcrank1]

Ha, BB, Ubad!

[Swampman]

I'm a state certified Safety & Environmental Specialist and IMO there is no real danger unless you drip sweat in the lead pot.  Like global warming it's way over blown.

[bikerbeans]

Maybe I should elaborate on my perspective regarding lead.  I worked 7 years in the navy nuclear power field and then 25+ years in the hazardous waste remediation field, as a contractor.  I am an engineer but I was right in the middle of all my projects, personal protective equipment, medical monitoring, the whole 9 yards.  I don't think I am jaded about the hazards of chemcials, I just think that the threat of a lot of the chemicals out there is way overblown.  Lead obviously can be a health hazard, but IMO is nothing compared to the benzene exposure you get everytime you fill up your vehicle.  Probably the stuff they spray on our food, that you are told to wash off with water, is a lot more of an issue to us than the lead we load and/or cast.  I just got me a overprotective missus and sawbone so no lead for me!

My apologies to the original poster as I seem to have driven this thread off the road and 1/2 way across a cornfield.

BB

[tykempster]

I find heavy recoil fun, to an extent.  It can push hard as long as it doesn't hurt, and I find it more fun.  The sheer power of a "heavy" load on a reactive target is much more interesting than a short plinking load to me!

[manatee1947]

Thats OK!! Threads are like a box of chocolates...........we never know when we may come unraveled.....no,wait....there was something. Oh well. more animated and informative than usual. Now I need a nap.

[gcrank1]

And they used to say that a man couldnt survive going faster than a horse could run......

[NFG]

You Dam** right some of this "stuff" is overblown...that's the only wan you can get funding to study the problems and effects of "KRAP" on humans...Doctors and Scientists want high paying jobs just like you and me...You have to scare the HE** out of "we" idiots...but the alternative is so scary I can't believe some of the cavalier responses...

Anyone remember DDT, Love Canal, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Hanford nuke facility, or ANY of the other thousands of disasters that happened prior and to, and to a certain extent, subsequent to the EPA's formation....What was going on at Hanford happened in Russia, but it wasn't reported until almost 20 years after the accident..and the effects can be seen from space.  It the same thing happened at Hanford, and it was very near happening...it would have radiated and contaminated large portions of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and on across the upper US.

Originally the environmental protection laws were even created just to blow off the protesters, NOT to actually DO anything worthwhile and except for one short sentence there was absolutely NO teeth in the law.  That one sentence, which was overlooked by all the lawyers and politicians by the way, is the only reason all the cleanups got started.  And the only reason the US isn't as polluted as it could be right now.  Cleaner air, cleaner water and cleaner land is the result.

He**...even the Superfund was originally nothing but a PR scam and NEVER had enough money to do what it was supposed to do...even today.

Most of you don't have a clue there is a plume of oil flowing underneath Las Vegas and there are little incinerators all over that valley burning up the petrolium effluent...you can drill in some places and come up with a mixture of gas, oil and diesel you could almost burn in your car, at least the older ones...EXCEPT...for the laws regulation what can and can't be sold.

I was within one semester of another BA in Environmental studies from UNLV before my body quit on me and I wasn't able to finish.  I still got in on some of the early studies the Desert Institute did on depleted uranium used in Russian and US weapons and the different totally un-natural daughter products found in the burn residue.

Lead may not waste you in 30 seconds but it has been proven to cuase mental problems in young children...do YOU want to be the possible cause of your child or grand child ending up with problems later on in life?

I mean D***...you need to look at the bigger picture and the longer term.  Probably doesn't really matter...we have schat upon our planet home enought as it is...and NO, I'm not an environmentalist nor do I want to save the planet...

Besides, we humans are so self centered we want our cake and eat it too.   I think Mother nature and our ignorance will take care of us "hoomans"...the ants, cockroaches, bacteria and viruses are waiting in the wings to take over our position in th food chain.

I don't have much time left and I'm just as self involved as the rest...If I WANT my lead bullets and all the "stuff" that is bad for me, it's no ones business but mine.......screw the rest. ...realistically speaking. 

Luck

[petemi]

hairy legged, stinking, sweating, wild eyed, testosterone filled, one and a half steps above a Cromagnon, machomen...

Huh!?  What?   Somebody call me? 
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention...    I'm very busy working up a new load for the ol' 45-120... something that'll really blow the socks offer them girly-men 45-70 shooters... 

Richard, I was just slipping into my girdle, thigh highs and bra to go out and shoot my .45-70.  Can't decide which skirt or blouse to wear.  Do you think 5 inch spikes and a mini skirt would be too much at the range

Petrina

[gcrank1]

I suspect it WOULD BE on YOU!.....unless you've really been fooling us with this 'man' act all along just to fit in.

[mr.frosty]

   Isn't dropping the hammer on one of those super heavy loads usually done right after "HEY Y'ALL WATCH THIS!"

Fire in the hole!!!!

[AtlLaw]

Do you think 5 inch spikes and a mini skirt would be too much at the range
Petrina

    ROTFLMAO!!!!   

Ah Pete me lad... you don't know how much I needed a laugh like that tonight!   

You da MAN!!!   

[john-78]

pete, you just started a new catogory for mike's thread,  cross dressing handi-holic!!

[Dances with Geoducks]

What's the reasoning in Super Heavy 45-70 loads?

Because I can.

My standard load is 40gr Reloader 7 pushing a 405RN 1700fps

I also load 475, 500,565, and I have 20 solid copper 600grs.

Then all are for fun. I have not gotten up the nerve to shoot any of the 600s, but I have them all loaded up and ready to go.

Shootin 45-70 is a hoot

[kevinsmith5]

YOu aren't in my "super heavy" range until you get past 550.

[NFG]

What??  My 4" heels and string bikini not good enought?..

450's at 2300fs, 600's at 2000fs and 720's at 1800fs...in the 45-120.  No dam good for pretty, but pretty dam good for BAD.    Beartooth 525 piledrivers at 17-1800fs not too bad also or 550 Craters at the same velo...in the 45-70.
 
Luck

[bikerbeans]

Geeez!

I go out of town for a couple of days and the inmates take over the asylum.  Pete, please post photos of your new shooting attire.   Where are you buying your clothes, Frederick's of Houghton? 

BB

[gcrank1]

BB, I afraid that sans your steadying influence things just got out of hand......I shudder to think where this may have gone if you were absent for a week! Now that you are back to help keep us on topic we may be able to avoid nightmarish imagery once again.

[bikerbeans]

These threads are supposed to have a Topic?  Now you tell me.