Way to go binnie....

[ironglow]

  You are completely correct, although our own resident Muslim sympathizer in the White House may disagree!

 
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20100512/twl-oukwd-uk-palestinians-israel-jerusal-13abf6c.html
 

[ironglow]

 There is only ONE real faith...represented by Jesus Christ himself. Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel, the home of the Jews..Jewish faith is the springboard to Christ. All others need not apply.
   For the purposes of keeping the peace and courtesy, as well as being magnanimous, the Jews should allow the Muslims to visit their mosque on the temple mount for as long as that mosque stands, and do it while being restricted to a route where they can be observed;
  after all, they do produce many mad bombers

[ironglow]

IG....you don't happen to believe in bigamy..do you?


.TM7

  Not really TM;
  I just believe in a clean, continuous family tree, with no offshoot rabbit trails...and no excursions over into the devil's territory.

  BTW: I really didn't expect you to agree with me anyway...

[ironglow]

No bigamy, just natural progression. I may have a wife I love very much...but I still don't turn my back on grandma...

[ironglow]

 Right; certainly not married to grandma, but I still retain a lot of respect for her..even if she seems a bit off track at times..

[ironglow]

Now you're getting off track.

[BBF]

Now that puts me in doo doo  I got triple loyalty    at least depending what, where and when.

[ironglow]

Now TM, you know who it is figures their god has ordained them to rule over Israel and the US...after they have destroyed both of us.... or  have done their best to do so.
  After that...then comes rule over the whole world..with their style of laws.

[BBF]

[

.
...................Well Okay...do any of your three loyalties consist of a special higher tier relationship with God ................

..TM7
[/quote]
At this stage of my life I am not on any tier with any celestial power but I do like to see a quick overthrow of your present Administration.

[ironglow]

  I can understand and agree with that BBF!

  The thing I have trouble understanding is after I clearly explained the facetiousness of TM's analogous claims of my "bigamy" and "dual citizenship", he still doesn't get it ! ..But that's OK, I'm sure there are facets of his life which I would not understand..
   Goes for all of us I assume..

[ironglow]

TM;
  You still don't get it ! I am a native born American, and my first progenitor arrived upon these shores circa 1650. i have never visited Russia, Lituania, Israel or Djbouti and have no citizenship from any of those nations.
  If you accuse me of being a defacto citizen of Israel, simply because I favor them in these discussions, I suppose it would be just as fair of me to consider your dual citizenship to be with the Palestinians, Egypt or Jordan.

  Hmmm..come to think of it, I have never asked you....

[BBF]

Bending rules somewhat again

Ironglow: I have trouble myself at following TM7 thoughts at times.
Simply put as I understand his posts when he compared dual citizenship with bigamy.

In bigamy you divide your loyality, support and affection between at least two people.
When you are in a position of power and influence having dual citizenship you are tempted to favour one or the other countries at the expense of the other.  IMO This usually is in favour of the first loyalty when it comes to dual citizenship.

[teamnelson]

It would be more apt to say that America ... the wife of our youth per TM7's analogy ... has played the harlot with China, Japan, Russia, Germany, Islam and Israel. Yet we like the prophet of old who was commanded to marry a prostitute to demonstrate the shame of Israel before their God, we the people who believe in her go out each morning and pick up America, and throw a blanket around her, and bring her home.

As for Israel, respect for one's elders is the only commandment with a promise. Slavish abject worship is a far cry from respect, btw. It is possible to show respect without it.

[teamnelson]

Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean divided loyalty. Do you buy products made in China? Is that bigamy? They are way scarier than Israel or Binnie.

[teamnelson]

I think you're assuming much if you think Petraeus and Mullen are for us, especially if by "us" you mean America. You're missing some key points if that's your conclusion.

If you truly believe, as I do, that we should put our country first in all things apart from faith [I do not want my country to be a theocracy of any religion, but a religious plurality as intended. And I do not want my country to be what I worship either.] then basing our National Security Strategy on the relationship with a single country in the region is stupid, along with basing it on the hope of reforming tribal cultures, or the hope that injecting billions will somehow produce stability. Especially if that single country is Israel, small, nuclear capable, ideologically opposed to its neighbors, even if they are our largest market. It would be prudent to develop better relations with all nations in that region as much as is reasonably possible, given our ideological differences.

But for matters of faith, I do think its possible to respect but not embrace the traditional faith of the Israelites and its role in the formation of the Christian faith without crossing the line into divided loyalties played out in politics. You may not think that's possible, but in your own personal life you've seen that it is possible to be a Jew and an American, so somehow the faith is not necessarily opposed to the American idea.

[ironglow]

TeamNelson;

   Right on, you are correct !

[BBF]

"Tango November"
 Not all American Jews are Israeli citizen, that is a big difference IMO. When it comes to those dual citizens as mentioned above in high position, I question where their first priority lies. If their second citizenship be other then Israel, would they be in the position they are in now? For myself I would be uncomfortable with any in these positions from another country.
Comparing China with Israel is a far stretch in that matter. I don't think a large number of Americans count China as a friend that must be supported  under any circumstance.

[teamnelson]

BBF, I think you're right: Dual citizenship holders should not hold a position of public trust, elected, appointed or otherwise. If you want to work in the public sector, drop the other loyalty.

But as for China, my point was that it is possible to both benefit from and at the same time not be loyal to another nation, even when that nation has a ridiculous amount of power over us.

[BBF]

TM 7
I know we ( Canadians) are not spared, it is just not as loud and blatant up here if you overlook the game that Quebec plays.

[teamnelson]

TM7, in 4 generations the Christian faith in the US will be nearly decimated (to less than .01% of current) and replaced by moral therapeutic deism calling itself Christianity. That is even with a generous factor of evangelism of 30 to 1 when the actual current rate is 42 Christians to win one convert. It takes 2 Christian families with 2.1 kids each to produce 1 believing Christian in the next generation. Even the so-called moral majority boomer evangelicals will be gone, and they're influence is on the decline so Zionist Christians may be if an age of influence now but are begetting no heirs to perpetuate the idea.

That's why I don't worry about binny - he's picking up our scraps. We turn more people away from faith than he attracts. Nations will crumble and fall, but the Word remains.

[ironglow]

Just who are these "true Christians" which number only 4400 ? Where do we find their church buildings, universities or publishing houses?
  One always sees red flags with any group that claims to be the ONLY ones with the truth. Grim reminders of Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, Branch Davidians and the Elizabeth Clare Prophet cult.

[teamnelson]

4400, that's a new number to me. 144,000 I know, that's the one claimed by the JWs. There's the 4400 captured by the Muslims in one of the Caliphates ... is that what you're referring to?

The demographics I'm citing are from Barna, Pew Trust and a few other organizations Christian and otherwise who are interested in the growth of the Church in the US and around the world. The same organizations all the major denominations in the US turn to for demographics when planning missions & evangelism activities, tracking church growth, etc. When I first left the military to prepare for ministry I worked with a few of them on some special projects - the Christian faith in the US is on the decline, which is distinct from the number of folks who call themselves Christian, most of whom don't go to church, share their faith, study the Bible, or participate in any activity that would be associated with some very simple and basic fundamentals of Christian faith and practice. By comparison, these would be as Christian as most Israelis are Jewish, or most Jordanians are Muslim ... in name only. What they believe has been described as moral therapeutic deism - a belief in a higher being, that wants us to be good & happy, but only gets involved in things when we're in a crisis.

[ironglow]

TeamNelson;
   Rather like "cafeteria Christians"...right ?

[teamnelson]

TeamNelson;
   Rather like "cafeteria Christians"...right ?

Yep, here are the pillars of their faith (as identified by the National Study of Youth and Religion, Lilly Endowment):

   1. A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
   2. God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
   3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
   4. God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem.
   5. Good people go to heaven when they die.

Oddly enough, if you then read across mainline popular Judaism, mainline popular Islam, etc. you will find that they pretty much agree on these 5 points as well. Poll a college student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, or American University in Cairo or Lebanon, or even ask the technical support guy in India, and you'll find pretty close agreement to these 5 basic concepts. Would not be surprised if this is the basis of a one-world faith, as an overwhelming majority of high school and college students hold these views right now, if they're not atheist. But face it, those 5 beliefs are no threat to secularism or atheism.

To TM7's point, these folks have neither loyalty to faith or country, typically. In Islam, these are the non-violent demonstrators in support of gay rights in Egypt. In Judaism, their civil union was performed by a female Rabbi. In Christianity, they ... well they like coffee, recycle, and drive a hybrid vehicle. Would never hunt, or own a gun, and they believe in hope and change. They volunteer at soup kitchens, and apologize for us to their gay friends - they might be gay themselves. Really really nice people, who do nice things for others. But push them in a corner and their loyalties will be to their friends and family first. All of them have more in common with each other, regardless of faith, than they do with us bitter folk clinging to our guns and Bibles, or Torahs and tanks, or Qurans and bomb vests.

To TM7's other point, this is why Obama can be sympathetic to progressive Muslims, hire and appoint progressive Jews, and get the vote of progressive Christians. They all share the same essential faith - the progress of an innately good humanity. Criminalize all the rest of us deviants, and jointly prosecute us, and they will have peace.

[ironglow]

TeamNelson;
     This is from a legitimate study ? Wow! that's an eye-opener for me !
  It is hard to believe that some people could so easily dupe themselves, or in some cases allow themselves to be duped so easily. I have been aware of the cafeteria types but never considered them to be any significant number overall.
  Certainly there cannot be many thinking people among them. Take verses #1-4, remembering that we have a God who has described himself as a "jealous" being. If one were to treat a human spouse according to those 4 points, such a marriage would be headed for a crash, to say nothing about what such a relationship would be with a "jealous" God !
   As for #5, that flies in the face of everything God's word tells us! Obviously, no human being is GOOD enough and we can only be admitted to Heaven after having been washed in His purest blood.
    God left us His Word, that we all might understand, but these greatly misled people seem to believe that "ignorance is bliss"..which it may well be..TEMPORARILY.  They may as well admit their atheism..and be done with it !

  As far as the last point, I am well aware of the unbelief of the "progressives" of every stripe, so they can draw unsuspecting "spiritual bimbos" into agreeing with them. Progressives are by nature, simply a mob of liars.
    It is of course, patently obvious that we "bitter clingers" are viewed by them to be a much greater enemy than radical Islam. After all, Obimbo is seeking open ended dialogue with the Taliban..while still offering only distain for we "bitter clingers".

[ironglow]

News on the oil leak ?
   Well for a comparison, GW Bush was accused of neglect because he was not on scene within 2 days, joining a bucket brigade in New Orleans, scooping out the effects of Hurricane Katrina. Now with another ecological disaster still in the making after more than a month, the current administration is still dithering and can't seem to get their butts up off their hands. The Dept of the Interior boss was on a whitewater rafting trip at the time of the blowout, and continued his weeks vacation anyway.The feds won't even give Louisana, Mississippi etc , the equipment or even permission to fight the incoming oil. "Never neglect to take advantage of a crisis"..didn't Rahm Immanuel say something to that effect ?
   Of course, the 'progressives" accused Bush of 1) causing hurricane Katrina, and 2) Purposely undermining the sea wall near ward #9.
We know that was BS, and likely the progressives know it was BS also but they continued to utilize the lie.
   It would be more plausible to accuse this admin of creating the oil leak, since it is a much simpler to engineer an oil leak than a hurricane.
 I doubt the accusations in both cases, if I endorsed the " leak causing" theory, I would look nearly as silly as the "hurricane maker" theorists. I think both catastrophies "just happened", the response is what counts.
   ..But as food for thought exercise, between the "hurricane maker" and "leak causing" theories which admin would have had the greater MOTIVE for causing a catastrophy ?

   The only clear message I see from this;
   Since our oil consumption has gone up rather than down, we still need oil and lots of it !  We surely should not be handing our capital funds to those who hate us, therefore, knowledgeable people such as Sarah Pallin, make more sense than ever when they say, "drill the oil which is available  on land, which is more easily accessable and thus, easier to control..should the need arise.

  The obvious lesson, if we are to learn from this, is to drill the  land based fields first.