Are Primers Standardized?

[BrushBuster]

As someone new to handloading, one of the aspects that confuses me is the proliferation of cartridge primers and their rating systems.

I know that for my application I must use the "Large Rifle" class of primer, but can't find comparison info. that identifies possible loading differences between similarly rated brands? For instance:
Winchester WLR
Remington  9 1/2
Federal      210
CCI          200
Could I not expect to get similar pressure and velocity reactions from these same-rated brands, without going through the "working up" procedure as one does for changing powder brands and type? My question concerns safety, not minor changes in accuracy.

[KN]

One of the gun mags did an article on primers a while back. They showed there are differences in primers from brand to brand. I don't remember the out come of the article off the top of my head. I have read posts that stated big differences in group size from one prime to another in a specific load but have never found the need to do that much experimenting myself. Personally I use only Winchester primers. No reason really but I have always had good luck with them. I load so many different callibers that I don't really want to have all the different primer brands setting around so I just stick with the one brand.  KN

[urika20]

I agree with you KN on using one or two brands of primers. I  tend to use Federal or CCI at my bench. A lot of the loads worked up in the reloading manuals are shot out of rifles that don't grace my collection. I've shot different batches with very little difference in velocity or noticable pressure signs. BrushBuster, grab a couple of manuals and check out the loads that intrest you. Compare rifles used, primers used and cases. See if similar powder weights are shown. What I do is... if a particular load has a max charge of 48.5gr. and min is 45 I'll start at 46, then 46.5, 47 etc or any combination between the 46 and 48.5 with 3 or 5 rounds for each powder weight. I would say there are instances that a certain primer called for must be used but the calibers of rifles that I own don't seem to be to fussy on the choice of primers. Bullets... now that is a whole other matter.
I hope I was helpful, no one was around to guide me when I started reloading about 30yrs ago. But the things I learned along the way.


urika20

[KN]

Actually I do use Federal gold medal match primers in a Taurus 85CH that I have lightened the hammer spring on. They are the only ones that are 100% reliable with that pistol. Had a local gunsmith tell me that they are the softest primers made and that they are the #1 choice of competitive shooters for that reason, and evidently they are.  KN

[Dand]

Since you plan to use a Lee autoprime you might want to note that they only recommend using CCI and Winchester primers (I think).  There are some different primer formulations and some are more likely to set off the whole tray.  Even read a warning from someone who had it happen.

I use mostly CCI and Win because they are most available to me.  I have never hesitated to use Fed and Remington when I had them.  Never had a problem with any brand.  But I mostly load in small batches of 5 to 50 rounds so don't often have the primer tray very full.  I think it was Handloader that has had some pretty detailed discussions on primers.  I'll try to find the issues.

[Jack Crevalle]

In the Hodgdon Annual Reloading Manual there is an excellent article on the effects of changing components. In the case of primers the author used 10 different primers ( standard and magnum ), in what was  otherwise the same load, and saw a variation of 48,800 psi to 52,100 psi.

[T/C nimrod]

In the Hodgdon Annual Reloading Manual there is an excellent article on the effects of changing components. In the case of primers the author used 10 different primers ( standard and magnum ), in what was  otherwise the same load, and saw a variation of 48,800 psi to 52,100 psi.

Which explains the velocity and accuracy differences you will see between different primers.

[T/C nimrod]

We do not take any position with respect to the quality or performance of primers available on the market. However, only those primers manufactured by CCI or Winchester are recommended for use in the Lee Auto-Prime, and when loading those primers, safety glasses should always be used. No other primers should be used with the Lee Auto-Prime.

Why is that? I mean that no other primers should be used in the Auto Prime. Are the other manufactures' not funding Lee, or were there no tests done with anything other then CCI, Winchester? I had a conversation with Lee (factory) a few years back - I'm curious if the reasons have changed. And have been cycling Federal primers through mine ever since I purchased it.

[BrushBuster]

This statement from Lee is puzzling? Is this a quality statement, or did Lee design the Auto-Prime for these specific primers? Anyway, I guess this decides for me about any flexibility in my choice of primers.

I had not considered switching back and forth between brands, it was just a matter of availability when I ran out! I'll get in a good stock of WLR primers, and let it go at that, KISS.

Thanks to you all, especially Dand for reminding me of this warning from Lee.

[Ka6otm]

Lee lays out his reasons for only recommending Winchester and CCI in his book "Modern Reloading" on page 37.

He states that "If a tray of Winchester or CCI primers go off (detonate), they will blow the cover off of the Auto-Prime."

"Other brands detonate with such force that it turns the tool into shrapnel."

Ka6otm

[T/C nimrod]

Lee lays out his reasons for only recommending Winchester and CCI in his book "Modern Reloading" on page 37.

He states that "If a tray of Winchester or CCI primers go off (detonate), they will blow the cover off of the Auto-Prime."

"Other brands detonate with such force that it turns the tool into shrapnel."

Ka6otm

And later in the same book mentions that the exact number (in the tray) of other brands is not known. Hmmmm? I like that book, but it weighs very heavily to his products; which brings us back to the first question - what's the relationship between Lee, CCI, and Winchester vs. Federal, Remington?

I've heard of primers detonating in the press mounted feeders, but not in the handheld tools. Anyone ever hear of any of the handheld tools having situations (outside of UL testing)?

[Dand]

Quite some time ago I read - probably Handloader - of someone who did pop off some primers in a Lee Autoprime.  And I think they were using a recommended brand.  Like I said above, I believe there are a couple different compounds used in primers and the CCI , and Win primers are less likely to be problem.  Haven't taken time to find those articles - if I still have the magazines. Maybe tonight.

[longwinters]

I have noticed in the few reloading manuals that I have that the ones who recommend specific namebrands in primers usually have an interest in those namebrands as a company.  I use Federal, winchester and cci.  I have asked different people who have reloaded for years and they dont think there is much difference between any of them.  But of course they are not doing pressure tests etc... they just shoot the things.  I would wonder what the difference is in large rifle primers and magnum rifle primers when using a powder like W748 as I have read that magnum primers work better with this powder even when used in a non-magnum rifle (like the 308).

long

[Ka6otm]

I did a little research on the internet and have found that Winchester uses "normal" lead styphnate and Federal uses "basic" lead styphnate in their centerfire primers.

The difference is that "normal" is hexagonal and "basic" is rectangular.

Then I found this:

"The longer and narrower the crystals, the more susceptible lead styphnate is to static electricity".

That might explain explosions in Lee Priming tools as they are mainly plastic, thus potential static generating devices and the form Federal uses is more susceptible to detonation from static.

Haven't been able to find the compounds in CCI and Remington yet, however.

Ka6otm

[Donna]

Hello guys and gals,

I have a nice page on my website on “Powders and Primers”. Primers are a fairley hard subject to get good information on but it can be done. There is an excellent book out called “The Poor Man’s Primer Manual” by George B. Dmitrieff and don’t let the name fool you it is in no way a poor man’s manual it just does not have any fluff in it but the information is very good.

Primers are standardized by their dimensions and material that the cups and anvils are made from. The dimensions you can find on my website but the primers are made from what is called cartridge brass, well cartridge brass can differ slightly in percentage of copper and zinc and traces of other metals. They can also differ in the hardness by how much the metal was worked or by the amount of annealing it was given. The most drastic difference is in the type and amount of compound used. By subtle changes in proportions of the compound the manufactures can change the relative sensitivity of the priming mixture and standard primers have less of the mixture then magnum primers but the amount of mixture in the standard primer does very between companies and the same for magnum primers. What is standard to one company is not standard to another company. All primers have an explosive compound in them and are therefore potentially very dangerous.

I have thrown one or two primers in to a potbelly stove and they went pop, pop, and no big deal until this one day I had about one dozen primers in a plastic baggie, no problem I thought, they will go pop, pop one at a time like fire crackers, wrong!!, they detonated all at once, lifting the upper half of our potbelly stove with stack and the tension of four guide wires a foot off the bottom half of the potbelly stove and totally mangled a steel ring in the stove. I have primer indentations in one of my kitchen pots when a boyfriend thought it would be fun to throw three primers in and hold the lid on. They went off one at a time but that pot never will be flat on the bottom again unlike my ex-boy friend’s head, I liked that pot too. The point is all primers no matter what make or model will explode and quite often simultaneously, this is called sympathetic detonation.

I happen to use CCI primers exclusively not for any particular reason I think it was what I started using when I got into reloading and just stayed with them. But I do use magnum primers in certain cartridges and with certain powders. Ball type powders, like from Winchester, are harder to ignite than other types of powder and therefore magnum primers are recommended. Magnum primers are also recommended if you hunting in colder weather, close to zero or below but with the newer temperature stable powders that are on the market now days it makes it less of a problem and if you keep the ammo in you jacket next to you before you shoot they keep warm making cold less of a problem too.

Well I babbled on long enough. :roll:

Donna :wink:

[Dand]

Good answers Kas6 and Donna.  I'm driving myself nuts. I can't locate the very thorough primer article I'm pretty sure I read in the last 3 years.  I'd be eager if any one could help me.  NOw I'd like to re- read that article. Thought it was Handloader but maybe it was American Rifleman.

In the mean time, I did find one smaller detailed article: Handgun Primers by Charles Petty Handloader Magazine Issue 190 Dec 97-Jan 98 page 30.

This is a pretty good article in that it compares CCI std and magnum pistol primers versus Federal's versions with two powders and all other components held constant in a 44 mag contender.  Main points I get:

Each type IS different and as someone mentioned above, the lead is "basic" or "normal".  Perfomance can be slightly to substantially different for the primers and 2 types of powders compared.  Accuracy may not have varied as much as one might expect but the statistics that catches my attention are the pressures.  Some load  pressures were much more variable than others and one case showed one primer produce substantially higher pressures than the other.  Sometimes a nonmag primer produced higher pressures than a mag primer - sure wouldn't expect that.  Pressure variations might be of greatest concern if   you are working with maximum loads or a delicate gun.

From this  article I decided that I'd be careful when changing primers and back off at least a grain  and work up just to be safe.

Further Lymans manual 47 had a pretty good discussion on primer make up, storage etc.  While not directly comparable I think the Lyman shotgun manual shows how varying a single component in shot shells - wads, primers etc can dramatically change pressures  - and safety of some loads.

[Jack Crevalle]

From this  article I decided that I'd be careful when changing primers and back off at least a grain  and work up just to be safe.

In the article I cited, the greatest variation in pressure was ~7% and this was data from only one load.

A grain in a centerfire rifle load might make a difference of only 2 or 3%. Maybe it would be a good idea to start back at the starting load if primers were changed?

[Dand]

I was thinking about my comment after posting.  You are probably more correct - or at least one may want to drop down at least 2 or 3 gr - depending on the case capacity, powder burn rate and how hot one thinks the load is overall.   I know really small cases can be affected more by really small changes in the amount of powder  (a few tenths of grain) (or primer?)- say a 9mm Luger, while in a 300 magnum with slow powder might be a little more forgiving.