Author Topic: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO  (Read 1872 times)

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Offline Incitatus

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MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« on: February 24, 2010, 02:39:35 AM »
Hi folks.

In a few weeks the most important case in a very long time is going to come to the Supreme Court.  It is McDonald vs. Chicago and it dwarfs everything else that we have seen, including Heller.

Even the NY Times has taken notice:

Interesting.  I went back to the Times to get the quote but the story had been edited.  What was there was a remark that Obama might not want to expend political capitol on issues that might be rendered moot by the forthcoming SCOTUS decision.  Odd.

This is the story, sans reference to McDonald:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/us/24guns.html?hp

In anyevent, I have a buddy who is an attorney who follows such things and he has commented here:
http://www.37mm.com/forum/showthread.php?16-MCDONALD-V-CITY-OF-CHICAGO-March-5-2010

I am going to twist his arm to comment on the proceedings as they ... proceed. ;)

Stay tuned.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 12:00:01 PM »
I'm a bit concerned that the NRA being allowed to jump in at the last moment and take up roughly one third of the argument time is going to have a negative effect here. I think it would have been far better for the folks who have spent the time and money to bring the case to the court to have the full 30 minutes or so rather than the NRA jumping in and presenting a short pitch and cutting short the time the folks who have time/money/effort invested to make their full case.

If this goes bad we'll have the NRA to thank for screwing us one more time.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline myronman3

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 03:24:04 PM »
agreed.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 04:28:24 PM »
I think that the NRA, after thier complete failure to get behind the Heller case, feels like they are under the gun (pun intended) to make a show of support in this one. They really dropped the ball on Heller, now they wanna make out like they are doing something important.

I think this one will again uphold the courts previous descision regarding the individual nature of 2A, but we could be hit hard in the nature of restrictions that states can place upon that right. Which could leave the NRA looking like idiots yet again! <snicker>
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 04:47:26 PM »
The NRA has become a money grubbing failure
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline Mikey

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 01:10:26 AM »
Whizz all over whoever you want to but it's a simple fact that if the nra wasn't out there making noise, the last noise you would hear is the local cops driving away with all your guns in the trunk of their car, or some thugs breaking into your 'undefendable' home.  You all might say - oh yeah, the GOA is better - may be, but sure not as loud or always, if ever, heard from.

Right now it appears this case may result in another 5-4 split, as with Heller, and the chicago thug politicians are worried - daley has even said they would appeal (lost the cause already mayor???) - appeal what, a decision they know the scotus will make against them.  Isn't it interesting how the tyrants, politicians and  anarchists always say they will appeal - they know they are wrong and it is typical d-rat politics to continue to bluster out how right they are even in the face of being told they are wrong by the highest authority in the land - but they don't have to agree or abide with decisions by scotus, on accounta they are chicago, or neu yawk, or sam's francisco, or la down under.  Kinda makes ya sick to see and hear their continued bluster - just like neu yawk and the elder kwomo (kwomo the younger is more of a communist than his father was) - continue on pressing for more restrictions and continue to push for more oppression even though you have been told it is wrong and then complain when the courts say you are wrong and must change and then drag your ass in the process. 

This is such crap - either we all get into this together or they pick us off one state at a time and if you aren't as eloquent as those who are trying to defend us then quitcher pitchin' and let them do their job.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 01:13:38 AM »
I agree Mikey!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

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Offline myronman3

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 02:14:16 AM »
tis my understanding that this lawsuit was brought by private citizens and then the nra came along and jumped on the coattails and i fear that might mess up the case.   i think the arguement would be much more relevent if the personal examples of these people were highlighted.  basically, showing how these peoples rights are being violated by the laws of chicago instead of turning it into a policy versus policy debate between the nra and the city of chicago. 
   so no mikey, i will not quit my ********.    and i hardly think of the nra as eloquent;  have you seen la pierre in a conversation?   perhaps the most inept person i have ever seen in a debate. 
   when i first started following this story i thought that maybe they were behind the scenes financing this thing, and taking a smart angle on it and staying out of the limelight.  but now it appears to me like they are trying to swoop in and snatch the glory begotten from the hard work of other people, and in the process they might have moved too soon and changed the outcome of the decision.   

   i agree about the continued behavoir of the politicians.  who are they going to appeal to?  the supreme court should be able to hold a few of these rats in comtempt of court and lock them up for a while, i bet that would change their behavoir. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 05:28:09 AM »
The NRA did not attempt to get involved in this case AT ALL until it had gone thru all the courts and was accepted by the Supreme Court. They have paid none of the expenses and had no involvement in it until just days before it was to be heard by the court. They then filed some kinda motion to allow them to enter into the case and it was granted.

When a case comes before the court the party who brought the case has a grand total of 30 minutes to make their argument. The lawyers and folks who've done all the work and paid all the money to get this case there had their argument ready to go then the NRA jumps in at the last minute and is granted ten of those thirty minutes cutting short the time the parties who've fought this and paid for it had to present their argument they've had going all along.

The NRA was WRONG to jump in like this at the last minute when they've done nothing to help and if the case goes against us you can lay the full blame at the feet of the NRA. If we win you can give them zero credit for their last minute grand standing attempt. It only makes me hate them all the more for this stupid last minute action. It's typical LaPierre politics. He felt they might actually win it so couldn't stand to not have NRA's name associated with it altho they didn't want to be involved while the real work to get it there was going on.

The NRA is NOT the gun owner's friend and will eventually be the cause of our gun rights being taken from us. If you can't see that then you have blinders on.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline myronman3

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 10:18:29 AM »
 the only thing wrong with your post is you capitalized 'lapierre'.   he makes me want to barf every bit as much as obama.   
 

Offline Squib

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 06:35:20 PM »
I hope it works out well for all of us, nra stupidity or not.  Maybe lapierre has be onboard too long?

Offline jimster

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2010, 07:01:27 AM »
"the last noise you would hear is the local cops driving away with all your guns in the trunk of their car,"

Our local cops do not have the means or the numbers to confiscate anyone weapons around here even if they took on this mighty task, and not all would.
But there are others who would probably take on the task from not around here...if that happens they will also drive away with the cops personal guns as well when it's said and done. 

At any rate, The NRA would do nothing about any of it, Wayne would be hangin out with congress asking them to not be so hard on us, he won't be around if things get tough.  There was a time when the NRA did great things, but it was long ago, now they seem to be just another political group.  They may have lost their way and got caught up in the same things that ruined all the rest, which would be standing knee deep in lots of other people's money.
That does tend to change many groups goals and intentions over time.  The leaders of the NRA will sell you out somewhere, to tell you they saved something else...much like the Dems and Reps do, and Lapierre will go out to dinner with the ones who would take our gun rights, same as the other political hacks do.
McDonald seemed to be doing just fine to me on his own, I can only assume the NRA got involved for their own benifit, they probably would have been much better off just staying out of the way and making a comment from the sidelines or something. 

What we have left to defend all our rights is just ourselves, and we all were warned long ago that was the way it would get to be someday. 

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 08:15:51 AM »
Whizz all over whoever you want to but it's a simple fact that if the nra wasn't out there making noise, the last noise you would hear is the local cops driving away with all your guns in the trunk of their car, or some thugs breaking into your 'undefendable' home.

I'm afraid you are very wrong about that. The last sound one SHOULD hear is the click when ones ammo has run out.......... :-*

BTW, I didn't know that commenting on the facts is considered "whizzing" on someone. Or perhaps you think I got the facts wrong concerning the NRA and the Heller case, and that they are jumping in after someone else has done all the work in the Mcdonald case? Or was it the comment that they looked like idiots after their failure? ???

The NRA has become a money grubbing failure

Good point T-man! I did some checking a while back and learned that the NRA spends 46% of it's revenues on more fund raising annually. When a non-profit is spending that much of it's revenue stream on fund raising something is seriously wrong with that org! A healthy non-profit should never have to spend more than 20% on fund raising. Having to do so indicates that the rest of their funds are not perceived as being used in the best interest of their targeted benefactors. Those who follow these things realize that an org that is spending that percentage on trying to raise more funds is ineffeciant and is usually top heavy with over paid executive staff, whos real goal is making sure they have a personal income from the endevour.

46% !!!!!!!



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Offline Squib

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2010, 04:55:30 PM »
i'm not familiar with the business/economic specifics but I've read up on the salaries before and I've about lost my stomach for any donations other than my membership (but that gets me magazines).

Offline OLDPUPPYMAX

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2010, 11:43:07 AM »
Baring any major surprise, we all know the 4 leftists on the court will simply PHONE in their decisions against the right to keep and bear arms. The 4 constructionists will vote in favor of incorporation and it will, once again, be up to Kennedy to break the tie. He decided the RIGHT WAY in Heller, perhaps surprising more than a few. In fact, he wrote the majority opinion. But Chicago is the BIG one and a limp wrist like Kennedy can NEVER be trusted to do what is right and Constitutional. Although we are all desperately hoping the Court maintains our 2nd amendment rights, it's obvious to me that actual Americans will NEVER take the necessary stand for their freedom until our right to keep and bear arms is threatened with extinction by the same radical left which passed the health care fraud. Maybe on the day we're told to take all of our weapons to the local "confiscation office" OR ELSE, real Americans will finally take up arms, march on DC and reclaim their nation. Seems it will take that sort of final threat to all of our rights, just to get the inherently stupid, lazy, cowardly or ignorant away from their TVs.

Offline Karl B. Andersen

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 05:48:49 AM »
Anyone know of the current status of this hearing?
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Offline Squib

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 06:58:46 PM »
I would like to know some specifics on this too, ..

fingers crossed for good news!

Offline Dee

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2010, 02:25:29 AM »
The reason the NRA has jumped on the bandwagon now is much for the reasons GB and Cuts Crooked say. I don't think the NRA got on board in the beginning because they really didn't think the case would get as far as it did. Once it did, they wanted to be part of the team. Many Americans vote that way. They only vote for a sure thing, they won't take a chance on a outsider, just like the NRA wouldn't. If the outsider starts makin a showin on his own, then Americans jump on the band wagon just like the NRA is doing. Must be in our culture to be that way.
Either way, win lose or draw on this court decision, it's coming anyway. As far as anyone loadin up and driving off with your guns, that's your own personal fault if it happens. Neither the NRA, or other Americans will be there to help you. Both only bet on sure things.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Karl B. Andersen

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2010, 01:22:17 PM »
Once again I ask, does anyone know of the status of this hearing?
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Offline kctibs

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2010, 02:53:54 AM »
Once again I ask, does anyone know of the status of this hearing?

A decsion should be made in the next few days it may be today or next week. Other than that I don't think anyone knows. The supreme court does not put out updates.
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Offline Karl B. Andersen

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2010, 12:57:59 PM »
Wasn't very hard to find this. I should have tried harder in the first place:
The Supreme Court on Tuesday seemed poised to require state and local governments to obey the Second Amendment guarantee of a personal right to a gun, but with perhaps considerable authority to regulate that right. The dominant sentiment on the Court was to extend the Amendment beyond the federal level, based on the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of “due process,” since doing so through another part of the 14th Amendment would raise too many questions about what other rights might emerge.

When the Justices cast their first vote after starting later this week to discuss where to go from here, it appeared that the focus of debate will be how extensive a “right to keep and bear arms” should be spelled out: would it be only some “core right” to have a gun for personal safety, or would it include every variation of that right that could emerge in the future as courts decide specific cases? The liberal wing of the Court appeared to be making a determined effort to hold the expanded Amendment in check, but even the conservatives open to applying the Second Amendment to states, counties and cities seemed ready to concede some — but perhaps fewer — limitations. The eagerly awaited oral argument in McDonald, et al., v. Chicago, et al. (08-1521) found all members of the Court actively involved except the usually silent Justice Clarence Thomas. And, while no one said that the issue of “incorporating” the Second Amendment into the 14th Amendment had already been decided before the argument had even begun, the clear impression was that the Court majority was at least sentimentally in favor of that, with only the dimensions of the expansion to be worked out in this case and in a strong of likely precedents coming as time went on.

An attempt by an attorney for the cities of Chicago and Oak Park, Ill., defending local bans on handguns in those communities, to prevent any application of the constitutional gun right to states, counties and cities looked forlorn and even doomed.
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Offline Karl B. Andersen

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2010, 01:16:00 PM »
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures -
right next to the mashed potatoes.

Offline Swampman

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 02:46:32 PM »
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Avyctes

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 06:13:44 AM »
Well, McDonald won, 5-4 vote.  Now lets see what the fall out will be.
"There exists a law, not written down anywhere, but in our hearts.. that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right."
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline Karl B. Andersen

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There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures -
right next to the mashed potatoes.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 05:44:50 PM »
here is the text of the decision:

SCOTUS Decision

A pretty good read, especially the consenting opinion offered by Scalia in which he rips Stevens a new one.

Alito does a good job of slapping around Chicago et al. in the majority opinion too.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline torpedoman

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 07:40:49 PM »
Big question Just who does the mayor of chicago think he is going to appeal to??  Either me or him is really stupid because i do not think there is an appeal when SCOTUS renders a decision.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline subdjoe

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 04:08:21 AM »
Big question Just who does the mayor of chicago think he is going to appeal to??  Either me or him is really stupid because i do not think there is an appeal when SCOTUS renders a decision.

Hey, remember that the former junior senator from IL is now in the White House.  How do you think he got there?  I'm sure he owes a favor or two to hizzhonor the mayor.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cohort

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2010, 07:40:46 AM »
There is still something fishy about this entire thing .  With the bulk of out Military half way around the world with most of their equipment .
We the People ,are the only viable armed force left here in the States . Its like someone wants us to remain armed ,while others are on the opposite
side of the issue entirely. The 2nd not only is our God given right ,its what seems to be holding up whats left of our Constitution .

SCOTUS is there to interpret the laws that are made in accordance with the Constitution. They would be a kangaroo court without it.
Take into account we still have the UCMJ , and it has not been breeched . It doesn't apply to me ? Think agian.
With the wave of a hand ,any General under orders could possibly conscript us willingly ,or otherwise in order to defend the County if that became necessary.

Your Governor's could also do this , if it looks as if Washington and the chain of civilian command had deteriorated to the point that was necessary.
Accourding to JANES.COM ,we have gone from the third largest ,to the second largest standing Army in the world ,second to only that of China.
And China doesn't count there ,because they are all reserve's and at the moment are not armed.
Because of our recent conflicts within the last 40 years. We now have more combat trained ,and experienced civilian personel than any other Country in the world. All falling within being still young enough to cause some real damage if we are ever Unified and Mobilised.
As JANE's says ,one good American Vet with his or hers deer rifle ,is a much better soldier than 20 of any other Countrys finest troops.

WHY ? Simple :
We have nothing to lose ,and we fight for our freedom.
Its our turf ,and not their's ,and they will receive massive casualtys .
Running in small groups ,the civilian population would hide these soldiers as well as equip.  feed , and care for them in secret.
We wouldn't have the logistics problems our enemy would have .
They will not win our hearts ,and every American will be out for some pay back .
If they were to shoot one of our children as a threat ,100 of thiers would be going home in a bag. Possibly burned alive .
If we ever unite ,and we will before this is done. As a Chinese General said  ( It will be the worse defeat any Army ever suffered in terms of the metal horrors they would suffer at the hands of the Rebels ) .

Verbatim :
Their gutted troops hanging from the Cyprus trees in the Louisiana swamps. ( as were those of the French )
Their frozen soldiers who died in the Rocky Mountain Winter while looking for food.  ( Buffalo Soldiers )
The open plains of Kansas are nothing but a death trap ,like ducks in a barrel . ( The western Settlers )
Islam likes to take off the heads of its captive's . Lets teach them what we know about takeing SCALPS !
In our Deserts there is no relief , everything that bites ,crawls , stings and sticks ,is present there in Force . They cant find an enemy that hounds them daily ,and they will fear the night.
And at one gold coin per scalp ,wanna bet they will lose so fast they didn't even see it coming ?
Ahhhh ,Free enterprise at its finest  , you cant keep a good capitalist down you know .

Sound bad ? Cohort is an A hole ?  Our own Andrew Jackson resorted to these measures and the British left him the hell alone .
Think about it America , in the end its you or them and you know it.
NEVER give up your guns ,you have the most modern and lethal arsenal in the civilised world . And have you noticed that 223 is coming back onto the market in large numbers now ?

And cheap ! get it while its hot .
Courtesy of your friends' over seas.
Stop em in America First ,it will spread from there .
And Americans ,you do have the guts to do it and you know it .
Your driveing them nuts guys ,keep it up.
No real leader to attack ,record gun and ammo sales. And who else but a duffus called Cohort who doesn't exist ,could be used to tell you that your doing good ?
Show courage ,show unity .

Offline mrussel

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Re: MCDONALD V. CITY OF CHICAGO
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2010, 07:04:16 PM »
Big question Just who does the mayor of chicago think he is going to appeal to??  Either me or him is really stupid because i do not think there is an appeal when SCOTUS renders a decision.

Yup,its a done deal. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot saying things like "We are not going to just roll over" and crafting a ordinance that requires you to get a permit to have a gun in the city,when the same ordinance PREVENTS anyone from opening up a training facility to give people the training the ordinance requires to get that permit. The similarity to the old "Jim Crowe laws" is striking in that the courts held that something was illegal and constitutionally protected,so laws were passed to try to create the same effect,while not outright banning it. I don't think the similarity will be lost on the Supreme Court justices either. I think we can expect the next case,and many more like it to start to nail down where the limits are. I think this is a very good thing. It starts us on the way to reversing the "gun phobia" that the gun control advocates have been creating over the last century.

 Remember,the whole point of a "balance" is that we have a right to have arms,but also the government (state,local and federal) has a right and duty to ensure order and safety. As the laws are relaxed bit by bit and the streets don't "run red with blood" it will become more and more obvious that the laws don't do what they claim and it will be harder to justify the infringement of our rights for the sake of safety and order. As an example,in California,or Chicago,they would argue that its absurd to allow citizens to carry concealed weapons because it would lead to mass lawlessness and tens of thousands of shootings. However,in many states they DO allow people to carry guns and such things dont happen.

 What I expect over the next few years is that these "Jim Crowe style" ordinances,trying to circumvent the constitution will fall. Laws that are restrictive but not clearly designed to create a defacto ban will replace them. I expect that handgun permits will be required to be issued (where they are required) without onerous procedures or requirements to any law abiding citizen. There may be a few skirmishes over what "onerous" means but it will be worked out.

 The next big fight will be about the meaning of "bear arms". As more and more of the country goes "shall carry" this will become the big issue for the few holdouts. National reciprocity may also be addressed either at the legislative or judicial level.

  I know many people are dissapointed that there was not a wholesale rejection of all gun control,but that was not a realistic expectation. What has happened is that the court has affirmed your that we have a right to own firearms. Over the next few years,the scope of that right will be hammered out. Once that is done,that's it. It will set the basic level. Clearly handguns are included,as that's what these were about. Its reasonable to expect everything we consider "sporting rifles" to be as well. The assault weapons bans may be eased or overturned,especially if the courts can be convinced of how arbitrary the bans are. (A weapon with a grenade launcher,a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug can be an assault weapon,when the same weapon without those might not meet the criteria,regardless of the fact that the grenade itself is regulated under the NFA and not typically available,and the other features are not particularly suitable for someone committing a crime anyway.) If they can be convinced that its just a way to arbitrarily ban a large number of weapons that might be a win too. On top of that,the decision affirms the right to have them for self defense. In fact, that opens a whole can of worms. Any weapons that have legitimate self defense applications,that is,weapons that are PARTICULARLY dangerous and capable of inflicting great bodily harm,would seem to be protected. After all,if it cant kill an attacker,its not very good for self defense. These are interesting times indeed.

 For all those that say that Heller and now McDonald was not a win,I dont see how they can think that. A few years ago it was illegal to own a handgun in DC,and a few weeks ago it was in Chicago. Now,although you have to jump through some crazy hoops,you can. It could be better, bit its a win any way you look at it. (unless your the mayor of Chicago.)

 (It should be noted,that it was pretty well obvious that the supreme court would rule as it did. If you look at the counter argument,about if it is "possible to imagine ANY civilized society" that does not recognize the right,then the right should not be given,by that same logic,absolutely every single right we have could be overturned that way. Thats a door that it was not likely for a majority of justices to open.