headspace...

[NFG]

Yeah, lots to learn Dave, along with the new vocabulary.  Gunspeak, just like Doctors have Docspeak and machinists have machinespeak.

For the most part I use Redding bushing style full length sizers and Forster Ultra seaters now.   The Redding seem to be just better made and I like to be able to adjust the neck sizing by changing bushings.  Works great when you neck turn.

As to the Forester Ultra seaters, they have a micrometer so you can shave right to the catzazzz and not nick him.  I have all of the different size heads and bodys so all I do is order the sliding  sleeve in whatever caliber I want.  You have to order a catalogue to see what I mean.

I've used probably all the other brands, including custom RCBS benchrest that cost a bunch and it took me a while to figure out the Forster Ultras are way cheaper and produce loaded ammo with less then 0.002" runout.  I have about the same number of Hornady die sets as I have Redding and RCBS and only two or three sets of Lyman.  A 6 foot shelf stacked 4 high with rifle, pistol and shotgun and I can't even hock them for the price of postage.

I used to smoke the cases or use a magic marker, then I made gauges, then I bought the Stoneys, so now I just measure the shoulder, then dial in the micrometer.  Much quicker and I don't get black all over my fingers.

I won't argue which is "better" neck or full length sizing because I've found they both work and it depends on the rifle chamber just which works better.  I do have neck sizers for most of my calibers but usually just use the full length bushing sizer.  If you have a factory chamber there are too many other factors that will open up the group, bullet seating point is the most important and you have to measure each bullet weight and each brand.  Stoney has a tool for that and so does Sinclair.  I use the Sinclair one now and before that I used one I made. 

Some examples are;  17 Rem - I use a Lee collet sizer and Forster Ultra seater, 223 Rem - Redding bushing full length for my Ruger and Redding Neck sizer for my Savage SA,  250 SavImp - custom RCBS sizer and Forster Ultra seater,  220 Swift - Redding Benchrest,  243 Win thru 300 WinMag - Redding bushing full length and Forster Ultra seater,  338-06 RCBS custom sizer and seater,  416 Taylor - Hornady full length sizer and seater,  30-30 - Lyman full length and seater, and Lyman for the 45-70.  In amoungst the riff-raff are some Lee for the 300 Sav and 6.5x55 Swede and Lee poundum's for my first 30-30 and 308.  I even found the vice jaw covers I made so I could squeezedown the vase  instead of hammer it in the Lee dies.  I used Redding Benchrest and Wilson bushing with Wilson micrometer seater for most of my early wildcats.

Don't worry, take your time, read a lot, ask questions, experiment, but do a lot of thinking before attempting anything strange.

Thanks Mac, for the links.  I checked the 45-70 again with a 0.0015" feeler and it locked it tight, couldn't pull it out and I didn't have anything thinner, so I'm happy as a frog. 

I got to say, though, 3050 f/s with a 200 gr CT is quite a bit past my pucker point.  My load of 61.5 Varget is compressed at 3.55" OAL, seated 0.360" to the bottom of the neck.  My Load Disk puts 62 gr at 3092 and 62334 psi and my load was doing 2920 f/s out of a 26" bbl with a big jump and half a grain less.  3050 is also 400 f/s past what my Nosler manul lists for the A-square, which has the same dimensions as my case.... a 30-06 necked up to 338 with no other changes.  Very close to the velocity a 338 WinMag achieves in the Barnes manual for a 210 XLC and near the 338 RUM and 340 Weatherby.  You and me is walking tall here with those numbers.  I got to get another box of CT's and see what 62 gr will do.  A walk on the wild side now and again is good for the sole...or soul...whichever you prefer. 

Enjoy  NFG

[Mac11700]

The Stoney's are a good tool...but..paying up front for all the new equipment is a pain in the wallet... ...Which is why I said to use a candle or bic lighter to begin with..One can easily spend a small fortune on equipment..and while it does make it easier and quicker..it isn't always the only way...I would rather see a person get a great set of dies first..this will go a-lot further to producing the desired results one is hoping to achieve..My first set of Forsters showed me this...

NFG...my 338-06A-square loads are certainly higher than what the Nosler book shows them to be..but..a-lot of that can be attributed to my chamber and cut rifling..Yes I know the pressures are higher..but..what is the point of having a rifle capable of sustaining 270 SAAMI pressures and not utilizing it to the fullest without sacrificing accuracy or causing damage? Accuaracy is important to me..but accuracy with velocity is what I always hope to achieve..

As you know..most folks underload the 30-06 parent case to begin with..and this is because of the multitude of older rifles in service..and all of the reloading manuals reflect this fact.....I normally don't and since we are dealing with a modern rifle..my reloading reflects this...I've learned a-long time ago..that people have a genneral misunderstanding of chamber pressure,all one has to do is listen to what is being bantied about to know this..most don't understand what is actually happening and what all goes into it.Peak pressure isn't what gives higher velocity..it is the duration of a sustainable yield within the confines of the barrel that does...otherwise known in dwell time..and factors allowing that pressure to act on the bullet therein is what will yield higher velocities with the appropriate powders without destroying the rifle..Many,many,factors effect velocity..peak pressure isn't the main item to zero in on..it is where the cut off point is...But...this is for another thread...because this is far from the headspace issue...

Mac

[Dave Allen]

hello, i do use the standard redding dies-i prefer them over a rcbs set i use for a 223...i will try that candle method...& see where i go from there...i will probably try to find a redding neck-sizer this weekend...thanks.

[NFG]

You're right, Mac.  This thread has been hijacked and ran way with way too far.  The problem is you and I know what cabbage to ride, but newbees can get the wrong idea from webees doing what we do and posting it.  I won't argue the subtleties, that gets into a big bucket of worms and head trips, too. You've done this enough to know the risks and how far to go.  I was putting out information I thought might be useful.  I keep saying the 'net is a wonderful place, but just like Utopia, it has it's thorns to watch out for.

Yes, you can get into megabucks when dealing with reloading.  I like to buy things,  and no, you don't have to spend a bunch at the beginning.  Most of the items I listed can be purchased, in total, for the less than the price of a new barrel from NEF.  I paid 10 bucks apiece for the last 1" mic, 6" digital caliper, and 1" dial indicator I bought.  Lyman has a ball mic for less than 40 bucks.  I listed what I think is a minimum setup for beginners to work toward.  Having a Chronograph is not completely neccessary, but very nice and the Alpha Chrony is about 80 bucks.  I aquired one when they first came out, and last year upgraded to the Beta Chrony. It is quick and easy to set up.  I use my Oehler when I benchrest and sometimes both, in line, as a check.  I think anyone getting into this sport has the where-with-all to afford the "minimum" requirements.

It is much more pleasant to produce a better class of ammo than to go through the disapointment of inferior groups.  It took you and me a long time to get where we are and I think we know most of the pitfalls.  If I can put a bridge over some of those holes for a newbee to walk on, I will.  Buying equipment is part and parcel of any endeavor, doesn't matter if it is reloading or metal working and shopping around it part of the process.

In any event, this is your bailiwick.  My problem is getting all excited about this sport and wanting to pass on all the knowledge I have, then forgetting myself and stepping on toes instead of the ground.  I will cease and desist with the verbage.

Enjoy  NFG

[Mac11700]

Dave...Sorry...didn't know your set up

NFG...Helping out folks who don't fully comprehend the sutleties is what we do here....Everyone has different insights and approaches to reloading...That what makes all of this worthwhile.I'm not trying to come down on you are anyone else..and if it appears that way,I offer an sincer apology or anyone else that may have taken offence....I've found there are always more ways to skin a cat..some of them may be good...some of them may be bad...but as long as we can show good results from our endevours..this is what will help others along the way...and give them more options...Dave here asked about headspace and how to eliminate his problems...others reading this..might have gleaned someother usefull information to aid them..

Everyone has their own learning curve when it comes to producing quality ammo...and everyone who undertakes reloading will have their own benchmark of what is acceptable and what isn't...Some in time move the bar higher when they reach their level...others have no need ...If we can help those who want to achieve a higher level of consistancy/accuracy...then we should give them as many options as we can and let them find out what works best for them...should we not? I haven't taken anything you've stated so-far as stepping on toes...so feel free to offer help and assistance whenever you want...It's nice when others like to help...

Mac

[jbirdwell]

Mr. Allen , what ever you do, if this rifle is a handi, Is check your head spacing . I have a .243 that did the same thing with new brass, scared the heck out of me , . it was a head spacing problem. I fixed it but it still wont shoot any better.
                                                Jim

[Dave Allen]

WOW..talk about a blast from the past..
i remember i was driving tim & mac nut's in those day's..

[quickdtoo]

 

[goofyoldfart]

Ok, Now for a "blast from the past", I AM guilty of Necroing a thread but I feel I need to ask this question. What is the use of the Ball mike? is this to measure to neck thickness so as to adjust the neck release factor of the bullet dia. as compared to the dia. of the neck portion of the chamber so as to help in the regulation of pressure? I have been reloading for 50+ years and never have used a ball mike in this incidence, just Starrett 1" mikes and dial calipers. I suppose a ball mike as cheap as they are would be a better route. are they used for any other uses in weaponry ? Thanks for any replies to this "senile old goofyoldfart" Blessed day to all

ETA: yeesh, just looked at the date-- 2yrs and 1day TALK ABOUT "NECROED'"

[NFG]

I use a Ball mike to measure the thickness "uniformity" of the neck walls...there are also tools that do the same thing by spinning the case between a mandrel and an indicator "clock".  Sinclair has several so does Midway...they are a lot quicker to use than the Ball mike and easy to set up.  There are lots of excellent tools available at a modest cost today to do all this "uniformity to the extreme" brass prep.

Uniformity in neckwall thickness "usually" translates into uniformity in bullet release, which "usually" translates into smaller groups, but there is a whole lot more going on than just bullet release.  I try to keep my brass neck walls on a loaded round turned to ~0.002" less than the OD of the chamber neck...easy to do if you order your own reamer, forget it in a factory chamber unless you happen to get lucky...AND of limited use in reality...there are a lot more things to do to "tuneup" a rifle system and brass prep that impact the accuracy level to do well before getting real picky with neck wall thickness...and the actual expected accuracy of the system HAS to be taken into consideration well BEFORE the "ammo picky" point.

One thing people forget, I think, about brass cases...is if one side of the neck is thicker than another side you can bet that the rest of the case has thicker walls on the thick neck side also...this is an artifact of the case making process.  It may or may not impact accuracy, pressure etc.  A ball mike is very useful when it comes to measuring the wall thicknesses on sectioned brass.  AS to the actual realistic effect it has on accuracy...that's up for grabs and depends on the rifle AND the shooter.

For the most part, getting this deep into case prep it WAY beyond what the average reloader EVER wants to think about...and is just for those well into competition.  Using Lapua, Norma, RWS brass pretty much eliminates dealing with this level of "fastidiousness"...and probably was only an excursion into experimentation to get the Nth degree of uniformity.

I "benchrest prep" ALL my brass to a certain level, depending on many factors.  For me it is easier to get good accuracy when I tune the rifle system AND the ammo...and it doesn't take all that much time as you can do most of it while sitting watching your favorite sports onTV.  I do it in the winter when the snow is deep outside and I can't get to my closed in shop.

Anyway...a Ball mike is a good tool to have, but not specifically required.  It will give you information you can't get directly with hardly anything else.

Luck