.308 Survivor Accuracy Potential?

[vincewarde]

I am looking to build or buy a long range target rifle in .308.  I can either build one on a Mauser action or go with a .308 Survivor.  I have several Mausers (2 sporters that I have built up) as well as a nice Handi frame with 4 barrels - so I am familiar with both platforms.

If I go with a Handi, it will be a dedicated frame barrel combo.  I may very well bed the action too.

My question is simple: Can a .308 Survivor be accurate enough to shoot out to 500-1000 yards?  Has anyone done any long range target shooting with one?

Thanks!

[Airsporter]

Haven't done any long range shooting (500+) but I would go with the Mauser.  Even if you do a custom barrel for the Handi, you'll likely still have forend, sling, and bipod issues. 

[NickSS]

I shot High Power for years and can tell your that a 308 needs a reall solid stock and a good quality barrel to do well at long range and the cartridge is really running out of steam at 1000 Yards.  You can drive tacks out to 800 yards but at 1000 it gets into the sonic sub sonic zone and starts to behave strangely.  Not that you cant shoot good scores but I personally went to a 30-06 for thousand yard competion and a lot of guys went with calibers like the 300 mags and other cartridges that could handle heavier longer bullets and still keep them in the super sonic zone at 1000 yards.  Build your gun on a Mauser action and buy the best barrel you can afford if you want to get serious.  Back 20 years ago when I was still competing a new barrel installed and bedded on my rifle would run me over $500 today it is probably nearly double or triple that price.  The H&R probably wount make you happy at long range.  I have a 308 handy rifle with a bull barrel and it shoots OK for a hunting rifle at a couple hundred yards but it would not hold a candle to my old Model 70 custom match rifle.  My old Model 70 would consistently shoot 10 shots at 200 yards into less than 3/4 inch.  I do not think that any handy rifle can do that.

[kynardsj]

For long range accuracy like you're talking about go with the bolt gun. Remington 700 308's have been the top pick of snipers for many years for a reason.

[PawPaw]

I agree with the guys above.  As much as I like Handis, they aren't designed for that type shooting.  Sure, you might get lucky, but building a rifle for 500-1000 yards is different from building a hunting rifle.

With the .308 you're going to have problems at the sonic barrier, like Nick talked about.  When I was in the Army (back in the dinosaur days), we considered the .308 an 800 yard cartridge.  When a bullet crosses the barrier from super-sonic to sub-sonic, it does weird things, meaning that the things it does are not predictable.  For maximum accuracy you want to keep that bullet super-sonic all the way to the target.  Sure, some of the Army and Marine marksmen in the sand have been doing wonderful things with the cartridge and platform, but I think that if you talk with them, they don't consider the cartridge to be a reliable 1000 yard cartridge.

Don't get me wrong.  I like the .308 cartridge, but just as Clint Eastwood famously said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

I've got a .308 Ultra that shoots very well, and I haven't done any load development for it.  However, I don't consider it a 500 yard rifle.

[mechanic]

My son in laws survivor will shoot moa all day, but that won't get it at 800 plus yard.  You basically need a one hole rifle at 100 or you will never get on target that far out.....

I shoot a 45-70 BC out to 800, but it has to be "dialed in", and accuracy is in the 15" to 18" range out that far.  Thats ok to shoot a large steel plate, but unless it's a very large animal, it would just be a wounded one.  I consider my BC a 200 yd. hunting gun.  The same with the Survivor.

Ben

[Big Blue]

I'd have to agree, find yourself a good bolt gun. There is very little room for error at that distance and every advantage you can find will help. There are a lot of great long range guns available out there today from Remington, Savage, Tikka and others, but don't expect them to be in the same price range as a Handi.
Don

[myarmor]

I echo the comments above. I love my Handi's and over the years have owned most all cal's in them, but for really long range I went with a Remington 308... it's hard to shoot a break action single shot consistent at long ranges. Not that it can't be done, but it's hard to get the same hold every time plus the extra 26+ is worth it.




-Aaron

[GreenMachine79]

I would go with the Mauser.

[Spanky]

The Survivor just ain't the right tool for the job... simple as that.



Spanky

[gendoc]

 My old Model 70 would consistently shoot 10 shots at 200 yards into less than 3/4 inch.  I do not think that any handy rifle can do that.

i have a few of them that will do that......  .220swift, .280ai, 7.62x39TFP, .308.  from a strapped lead sled and percision handloads
but of course, once set-up for that....they won't do nut'n else. and the cooling process is time consuming.
when you talk about distance.....the swift has rolled kiyots past 400yrds with outstanding results between POA & POI
from a harris bipod off the back porch to the "gut pile"  

[vincewarde]

Thanks everyone.  I'll probably build up the Mauser.  This will be the third one I have done, but it will be the first rebarrel.  Only question now is how much to do myself and how much - if any - to send out.  I may also reconsider the caliber and go with something else.  I will be on a tight budget, so I want to get this right the first time

[kevinsmith5]

500 on a 308 yes. 1000? When you build that Mauser is that goIng to be the cartridge?

[tykempster]

I wouldn't trust a Handi to 1k.

A custom Mauser would be a better bet.

However, the 308 can be well supersonic at 1k with the right bullet combinations.

A grain 155 grain Scenar at 2900+ fps will make it

A 175 SMK at 2700+ will make it

a 208 Amax at 2600+ will make it, and much more!

Plus, first hand from a friend, the 175 stays stable past subsonic range, at least to 1500 yards.

[quickdtoo]

While not a Handi, someone needs to tell Sgt Gilliland that the 308 Win(7.62 Nato) in his M24 sniper rifle(Rem model 700) won't work past 800-1000yds. 

Tim

http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/sniper_record_shot.htm

U.S. Army Sniper Nails Record Shot
By Toby Harnden
LONDON SUNDAY TELEGRAPH
January 15, 2006

RAMADI, Iraq -- Gazing through the telescopic sight of his M-24 rifle, Army Staff Sgt. Jim Gilliland, leader of Shadow sniper team, fixed his eye on the Iraqi insurgent who had just killed an American soldier.

His quarry stood nonchalantly in the fourth-floor bay window of a hospital in battle-torn Ramadi, still clasping a long-barreled Kalashnikov. Instinctively allowing for wind speed and bullet drop, Shadow's commander aimed 12 feet high.

A single shot hit the Iraqi in the chest and killed him instantly. It had been fired from a range of more than three-quarters of a mile (1320 yards), well beyond the capacity of the powerful Leupold sight, accurate to 3,300 feet.

"I believe it is the longest confirmed kill in Iraq with a 7.62mm rifle," said Sgt. Gilliland, 28, who hunted squirrels in Double Springs, Ala., from the age of 5 before progressing to deer -- and then to insurgents and terrorists.

"He was visible only from the waist up. It was a one-in-a-million shot. I could probably shoot a whole box of ammunition and never hit him again."

Later that day, Sgt. Gilliland found out that the American soldier who had been killed by the Iraqi was Staff Sgt. Jason Benford, 30, a good friend.

The insurgent was one of between 55 and 65 Sgt. Gilliland estimates that he has shot dead in less than five months, putting him within striking distance of sniper legends such as Carlos Hathcock, a Marine who recorded 93 confirmed kills in Vietnam.

One of his men,Spc. Aaron Arnold, 22, of Medway, Ohio, has chalked up a similar tally.

"It was elating, but only afterwards," said Sgt. Gilliland, recalling the Sept. 27 shot. "At the time, there was no high-fiving. You've got troops under fire, taking casualties, and you're not thinking about anything other than finding a target and putting it down. Every shot is for the betterment of our cause."

All told, the 10-strong Shadow sniper team, attached to Task Force 2-69, has killed just under 200 in the same period and emerged as the U.S. Army's secret weapon in Ramadi against the threat of hidden improvised explosive devices or roadside bombs.

Above the spot from which Sgt. Gilliland took his record shot, in a room at the top of a bombed-out observation post that is code-named Hotel and known jokingly to soldiers as the Ramadi Inn, are painted the words, "Kill Them All" and "Kill Like You Mean It."

On another wall are scrawled the words of Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and a former prisoner of war in Vietnam: "America is great not because of what she has done for herself, but because of what she has done for others."

The juxtaposition of macho slogans and noble political ideals encapsulates the dirty, dangerous and often callous job the sniper has to carry out as an integral part of a campaign ultimately being waged to help the Iraqi people.

With masterful understatement, Lt. Col. Robert Roggeman, the Task Force 2-69 commander, conceded: "The romantic in me is disappointed with the reception we've received in Ramadi," a city of 400,000 on the banks of the Euphrates, where graffiti boasts, with more than a degree of accuracy: "This is the graveyard of the Americans."

"We're the outsiders, the infidels," Col. Roggeman said. "Every time somebody goes out that main gate, he might not come back. It's still a running gunbattle."

Highly effective though they are, he worries about the burden his snipers have to bear. "It's a very godlike role. They have the power of life and death that, if not held in check, can run out of control. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

"Every shot has to be measured against the rules of engagement, positive identification and proportionality," Col. Roggeman said.

Sgt. Gilliland explains that his Shadow team operates at the "borderlines" of the rules of engagement, making snap judgments about whether a figure in the cross hairs is an insurgent or not.

"Hunters give their animals respect," he said, spitting out a mouthful of chewing tobacco. "If you have no respect for what you do, you're not going to be very good, or you're going to make a mistake. We try to give the benefit of the doubt.

"You've got to live with it. It's on your conscience," he said. "It's something you've got to carry away with you."

[tykempster]

While it is obvious this shot really happened, I would like to know how he hit the guy only holding over 13 feet.  A 308 is gonna drop a lot more than that at 1300 yards I believe.

[tykempster]

A 308 with a 175 grain SMK at 2600 fps is going to drop nearly 58 feet at 1300 yards, at 8000 ft altitude.

[GreenMachine79]

"He was visible only from the waist up. It was a one-in-a-million shot. I could probably shoot a whole box of ammunition and never hit him again."

The author probably just made a mistake on the conversion from moa to ft, I'm rather confident that the spoter and shooter are use to calling out moa and not feet.  

[quickdtoo]

I watched the story on History International last night(DVR), seems to me he said the scope was maxed out and he Kentucky'd it 12 feet higher, Ramadi's elevation is not much above sea level, like 200'.

Tim

[joeinwv]

I don't think they mentioned the relative elevation either - target was on 4th floor, but shooter may have been much higher.

I have a Rem 700 in 308 - I have never tried shooting at more than 600.

[PawPaw]

Sergeant Gilliland made a good shot, there's no doubt about that.  How much luck played in the process is something we'll never know.   I'm fairly certain that the good Sergeant is highly trained and it's been my observation that luck seems to favor the highly trained.

Still, I'd like to buy the man a beer.

Another shot on the edge of experience and luck happened back in the 1800s at a place in Texas called Adobe Walls.  A fellow named Billy Dixon shot an Indian off a horse at something over a mile with a 50-90.  Pretty good shooting there, and if I recall my history right, Dixon never claimed any great skill from that shot.

[quickdtoo]

Snipers are positioned on the roof of the "Ramadi Inn" as they call it, it's a 4-story building, so there's no ballistic elevation advantage even if it could be considered a factor that far away.

Tim

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12581191/

[kevinsmith5]

When I said the .308 wasn't suited for use at a thousand yards I was talking target shooting. The frame of the human body doesn't have scoring lines.  A .308 180-200 gr built with an MV of 2600-2700 FPS will kill an unarmored man at that range just fine.

P.S. - if it's an M-24A2 rifle it's a .300 Winchester Magnum, not a .308. Still 7.62 mm, but different cartridge.....

[tykempster]

I'd like to know more about this sniper's shot...I'll look into it more after work.  Using a 300 WM with heavier bullets going much faster would help, but that's still a very impressive shot on a human...especially if your scope ran out of adjustment 13 feet ago. 

[quickdtoo]

All references I've found state he was using an M24 7.62 rifle shooting a 175gr bullet at 2600fps which makes it the 7.62x51 round, not the 300 WM.

Tim