Has anyone ever gotten a pressure sign shooting cast bullets?

[wreckhog]

Gotta bug about shooting some plain base cast in a Handi. These are 115 grain carbine bullets that do not want to cycle in a lever (original plan). Stepping back, a used 30-30 barrel fits a spare SB1 frame with a Coke can shim. Hmmmmm.

I know the frame strength issue and the firing pin size issue. Figure a loose shim only makes it potentially worse as the barrel/frame is not as tight.

On the other hand, how much pressure can I possibly generate with plain base before leading up the barrel? Depends on powder, but I am not expecting to top 26k PSI. I'm not sure, but don't you need to be well over that before pressure signs ever become visible?

[PawPaw]

Good question, although you'll start getting leading well before you start getting pressure signs.  There are simply too many variables to be able to answer your question.

First off, why won't they cycle in a lever?  The rifle doesn't know what type bullet you're using, and they're certainly round-nose or flat-tip bullets, so they should cycle just fine.

Second, who made them?  Whether they're soft or hard, you can't drive them much over 1500 fps without getting leading.  They'd make great plinking bullets.  I use a bullet designed for the .32-20, they're 115 grain and I load them over 0.7cc of Blue Dot, for about 1200 fps.  Great plinkers. 

How much pressure you can generate before getting leading is directly dependent upon the strength of the alloy.  For example, if you've got alloy that's rated to 15,000 psi, then you can load the ammo to generate almost 15,000 psi before you get leading.  There are chapters devoted to this topic in reloading manuals and volumes written on chamber pressures.    It's not an easy topic.  However, a few basic rules and you'll be okay.

Keep the velocity under 1500 fps for plain base bullets.

[NFG]

What the bullet is made of really doesn't mean a thing...YES you can get way the HE** over pressure limits with cast lead bullets.

The reasons most people "normally" don't is the leading problem is approached from the bottom...slowly, but that can be overcome somewhat by a few extra's like adding more lub by hand, gas checks and using hard cast slugs.

I bang away with 435 to 590 gr cast lead slugs in my 45-120 and 510 Makatak at velo's up in the 2600 fs plus range WITHOUT MAJOR LEADING as I use hard cast, gas checked bullets AND add extra Alox to the bullet and keep an eye onthe bore...any sign of leading and I start cleaning and reducing the load or work out a solution.  The pressures are up nearly the same as Jacketed bullets of the same weight...it wouldn't take much to push the pressures over the wrong side of the fence.

A soft lead slug designed for BP at 1500fs can lead up quickly when pushed and the lead coating will contribute to bullet drag AND pressure build up.

Maybe the first few rounds won't cause a problem but somewhere along the way the pressure could spike and you will get all kinds of pressure signs all at once....

All the warnings about SB1 frames have been well posted...I been doing this stuff for over 50 years and I WON'T go messing around with ANY cartridge or bullet construction type not recommended for that frame, it doesn't matter what I MIGHT think...it AIN'T WORTH the sweat...I've learned a lot of hard lessons, some intentional and some not...I have all my fingers...well 9 1/2 anyway...and all the other pieces and parts I want to keep, and I want it to stay that way.

My one SB1 frame sits stripped...someday I might put a 22 Mag barrel on it.

Listening or not to those warnings is YOUR business, just let me know what part of the country you live in and when you are goind to do this monkey business so I can be sure to be a long ways away.

Luck...(sounds like you night need it.)

[topper88]

I just got done testing Richard Lee's theory of compressive strength of the bullet vs. velocity for loading cast lead.  First I used a cast 155 gr. with a gas check and stopped just short of 24,000 PSI pressure according to his calculations.  No leading.  Next I tried the Magnus 115 gr. without a gas check meant for the M1 carbine and loaded to just short of 24,000 PSI pressure.  No leading. So his theory seems sound as both the loads were around 2,000 fps.  I was amazed to find the faster loads gave 2" or better groups at 100 yds.  I was not trying for accuracy but did this test while fire forming range brass so I could neck size.  If I lubed with alox supposedly you could go a bit hotter but I was satisfied.  I would never consider using the 30-30 on anything but a sb2 frame.

[wreckhog]

I'll be using stuff from betterbullets (local guy) that appears to be Magnus carbine bullets. Pretty hard. Trying to feplicate 32-20 ballistics.

[gcrank1]

My 30-30s have been tighter bores and chamber throats than my '06s and 30-40Krag, but I stand by the recommendations of The Cast Bullet Assoc. to use the largest dia, cast bullet that 'comfortably' fits a fully chamber/throat expanded case, regardless of alloy. That, and any decent lube, has served me very well. To use an undersize (by the above criteria) bullet, even if cast of a hard alloy, you will often get leading. Sometimes worse leading than if you had used a softer alloy.
That said, I size 100-115ish bullets to fit my case necks, lube with Lee Liquid ALOX, and load 32-20 equiv. for the 30-30 for good plinkin' fun.
Works for me, hope it does for you, too.

[briannmilewis]

...Stepping back, a used 30-30 barrel fits a spare SB1 frame with a Coke can shim. Hmmmmm.

Make sure your Last Will and Testament is in order and the suicide note will be easily found. Ask that some pictures be taken after the event and have them posted in the FAQs right along with the other warnings about not using SB1 frames with high pressure loads because they can be life threatening. While you are at it, make sure your will specifies me to get your gun collection, my name and address is...

[Spanky]

Apparently a couple of you guys don't know that 30-30's used to be on the iron frame. So did the 357mag, 44mag, 22jet, 45-70.......
If you do some checkin' you'll see that the current 357's and 44mag's are on SB1 frames and the 44 has a larger case head than a 30-30 and runs up around 40,000 cup with some loads.
Enjoy your 30-30 Wreckhog... you ain't hurtin' a thing.



Spanky

[gcrank1]

That, and a 32-20 equiv. lead bullet load in a 30-30 case is, by no means, a 'high pressure' load.

[NFG]

I don't think anyone who's played with Handi's for any length of time would worry about the 30-30 loads in question doing any harm. 

It is the real issue of someone without much knowledge, reading about so and so doing such and such then saying "he used an SB1 frame" then doing something extremely not good and un-cool.

I think following what the maker did is best...I do all kinds of things that I DON'T spread around on the net...just because I know someone will mis-read or mis-interpret and might get hurt...

I have 50 years of experience from which to judge from...while Joe Newbee just picked up a used Handi and is all ready to jump head first into the shallow end and forget about reading the fine print...not to put too fine a point on it.

There is a responsibility on the part of those in the know to BE responsible and try to keep things safe...OVERALL...not just in the short term but taking the long view.  There are enough people doing questionable things without adding to the mix.

I think the cast iron frames were phased out for a reason...I won't second guess the NEF engineers...I do enough dumb things already.

Luck

[stimpylu32]

I don't think anyone who's played with Handi's for any length of time would worry about the 30-30 loads in question doing any harm. 

It is the real issue of someone without much knowledge, reading about so and so doing such and such then saying "he used an SB1 frame" then doing something extremely not good and un-cool.

I think following what the maker did is best...I do all kinds of things that I DON'T spread around on the net...just because I know someone will mis-read or mis-interpret and might get hurt...

I have 50 years of experience from which to judge from...while Joe Newbee just picked up a used Handi and is all ready to jump head first into the shallow end and forget about reading the fine print...not to put too fine a point on it.

There is a responsibility on the part of those in the know to BE responsible and try to keep things safe...OVERALL...not just in the short term but taking the long view.  There are enough people doing questionable things without adding to the mix.

I think the cast iron frames were phased out for a reason...I won't second guess the NEF engineers...I do enough dumb things already.

Luck

Very well said , not sure the boys at NEF ever figgered a Coke can shim into their numbers either . 

stimpy