Ok back from the range. I redid my 45 carbine, took off the scope and rails, off the surviver set up. On a topper frame and wood, open sites. Shot heavy loads, GC. Light loads PB and GC. and the NMBH. Used the same loads in both. I shot free hand, standing. Shot the guy in the head 6 out of 7 with the rifle. 25y quick shots. all in the body with the pistol. I bench rest fired 6 rounds at 50y, very hot, about 4" with the rifle, factory sites, no bags. I guess thats ok for me. One must go within the limitations. I think that is MOA of deer. Its the sport, the hunt, and knowing the limitations. If I need to fill the freezer, the 270 will get er done.