Author Topic: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?  (Read 766 times)

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Offline tacotime

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Maybe a silly question - just wondering if these possibly cheaper bullets are suitable for light plinking loads in the 45-70?  If so, does anybody have a good light load I could try for a Shikari below trapdoor levels?

Thanks!

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 12:05:17 PM »
That sounds like a pistol bullet.  If so, then the answer would be no.  Pistol bullets are .452 +.002/-.001 and rifle bullets are .458 +.002/-.001 typically.  Good inexpensive practice bullets that are quite accurate for smokeless or bp loads are Hornady interlocks.  8)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=699223
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline tacotime

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2010, 12:16:07 PM »
Correct - I was thinking about pistol bullets, and should have known they were not suitable.  Thanks.

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2010, 01:09:19 PM »
Taco,

I know folks (I am not one of them) who make light plinking loads for the 45/70 with .457 round balls.  I guy claims he can load 3 round balls into one case.  I don't know the load recipes or how well they shoot.  Muzzleloaders that shoot round balls have a slow twist rate so not sure if a round ball would like the faster twist of a 45/70.  Unless you cast your own, the cheapest .457 to .459 plain base lead slugs I have found for the 45/70 are in the $0.24 to $0.30 per bullet range.

bb
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2010, 06:10:52 PM »
I load .457 round balls with 13 GR. of Unique.  With the longer barrel of the BC, a lot of the lower loads don't get enough oomph to get to 25yards well.  I started at 6 gr. Unique and laddered up to 13 gr.  At 6 gr. the ball rolled out the end of the barrel, literally.  Anything higher than 13gr will lead from my experience.  I settled on the 13 gr., because it gives good accuracy and consistency in this barrel length.  I can almost always hit the 10x10 gong on my range at 100 yards, and group around 6" on paper at 100.  That's pretty much max range, because the accuracy seems to destabilize around 100 yards.  At 50 yards, I can hit a pop can size target well.  The lowest load I'd use for varmint size game is 10gr.  That is only good to about 50 yard max and isn't quite as accurate in my gun although it is a lot quieter also.  Just remember, this isn't really intended for hunting medium size or larger game, but a way for me to plink and shoot small game while on a big game hunt without having to carry a second weapon.  I'm working up some shot loads to try also, but really trying to avoid leading and the length of the barrel seems to really limit the range due to the rifling.  Only good for about 20 ft. thus far.  I intend to try some bismuth shot loads when I can get some as this should help avoid deposits.  I have started to work into some ball loads for my .45 LC also, but cannot test them until my original gun gets returned from the dealer.

In order to get good accuracy, the process I use is to use once fired brass and DON'T full length resize the brass.  If you don't have one, I'd recommend getting a Lee Classic loader. I deprime on the classic loader base and thus brass isn't modified.  Since these are low pressure, I set the same 30 or so aside only for RB and you don't get much case stretch, since it's so low powered.  I still put them on the length sizer gauge to be sure, but I haven't had any move after a few firings.  If your chamber is big enough that the fired brass allows the ball to fall into the case, as mine does, I then tap it into the classic loader, which neck sizes only, and it doesn't even require much pressure.  If your chamber is tight enough to make the ball hover on the edge, you can skip that step.  If you do neck size, I bell the mouth slightly with the tool supplied with my .45 LC Classic loader.  This puts a slight bell and lets the ball hover almost at it's hemisphere.  I then use my hand press, also a Lee product, and use the expander die as a seater.  To set it up, I put a case with a ball in the mouth into the shell holder and screw it down until it just touches the ball.  Then I lower the case/ball and screw the expander die in 1/2 turn more.  Then run the case/ball back up into the expander die.  This seats the ball just a fraction past it's hemisphere and doesn't deform it.  I have "thumbed" some in place and just tapped them with a plastic tipped hammer, but the accuracy was not nearly as good.  The final step is to then use my Lee Factory crimp die and set it per Lees instructions, which are to screw the die in with a shell in place until it just contacts the mouth of the case, then lower the case and turn it 1/4 turn more.  I think I actually use closer to 1/2 a turn in this case.  This basically crimps the end of the belled area just enough to lock the ball in position and lets it build some pressure before entering the bore.  Since there is a small 1/8" or so jump to the rifling, I think the crimp helps bridge this better.  I've actually been considering buying some .45-90 brass and trimming it to full chamber depth for these loads and shot loads, but still having fun testing them.

I keep about 5 of these on me when going out to hunt and if I see one of the despicable woodchucks, that seem to love my families' homestead, I pull out one of these and it will dispatch them quite nicely.  I have been considering going to a color marker code on the balls and carrying a few 10gr. loads for the occasional fox squirrel that seems to think it is his job to notify the forest of my arrival too.  I think markering the tip red for the higher power balls and blue for the lower power will let me tell at a glance which is which.  The next set I load up, I've been considering giving the balls a thin coating of Lee Liquid Alox to test their accuracy.  8)  If you try them, just be sure to check the bore after EVERY single shot for a stuck projectile.  This would really ruin your range trip if you don't.  I also keep my muzzleloader range rod on hand in case something is stuck.  The range rod is sturdy enough to push out the stuck ball with the loading Jag attached and is made of aluminum, so it doesn't harm the chamber or barrel. Hope you have fun if you try them.  ;)

*edit*  I have done 2 and 3 ball loads, but was very disappointed with their performance.  It's really hard to do it with unique, but with BP where you can seat on the powder with the first ball and a wad, it might work better. ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline quickdtoo

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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2010, 08:12:27 PM »
Yep, my I'd heard of the sabot's and almost bought some tonight, but I am low on unique so bought powder and bullets instead.  lol  My only concern with those is that you might have to watch for plastic build-up as in muzzle loaders.  I see there are some plastic solvents now for cleaning it though.  hehe  One of my next goals is to try some of the 165gr. "Collar Button" bullets with their large grease groove and see how they work with Unique.   So many projects, so little time and money, lol.
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline tacklebury

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 08:21:18 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that the lighter balls tend to shoot about 4"-6" high and left about 2" from my POI of my normal loads at 100 yards.  Not too bad, if you are ok at Kentucky windage.  8D
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2010, 08:57:06 PM »
Here's the original data for the collar buttons, Western is a good, inexpensive source for other cast bullets as well.

Tim

http://www.westernbullet.com/ly4gr6.html



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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2010, 05:17:15 AM »
Regarding shot loads, I've heard that the rifling tends to made the loads shoot 'donuts' (and Ive got shotguns, so havent tested it). To prevent fouling the rifling Ive also read to use, or make of waxed cardboard, ie, orange juice containers, etc., an X shaped 'shot cup' that fully encloses the shot load.
All unverified by me, but Im sure you are re-inventing the wheel on this one.
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2010, 05:57:54 AM »
10-4 on the "donuts" when shooting birdshot in a fully rifled barrel.  Tried Shot loads in a fully Rifled 12 ga slug gun and couldn't break a clay pidgeon at 30 feet. 

BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2010, 06:34:55 PM »
Yep, I've heard of the issues surrounding their use.  I am working on a sabot/wad concept that may correct some of the issues.  If it works I'll pass it along.  ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline tacotime

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Re: Can 230g FMJ or LRN .45 bullets be used in light loads in the 45-70?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 10:41:47 AM »
Thanks for the info!