Author Topic: Prairie dog hunting in Wyoming - dilemma; confused, frustrated, concerned  (Read 2148 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Blackhawker

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1486
A few weeks back a friend and I went prairie dog hunting in our usual spot of southwestern Wyoming.  About 10 years ago we hunted several times on a ranch and in the Thunder Basin area on the eastern side of the state but the hold off on black-tails brought us back to the western side once again.  We have become concerned with the lack of prairie dogs that we see.  Many of the places we used to shoot in are now nearly ghost-dog towns.  This year and last year we made it a point to avoid certain areas that we find are getting scarce so that maybe the population will grow once again AND we avoid some areas that we find to be the "last hold-out" of them with hopes that some might migrate to some of the adjacent vacant areas.  The problem that concerns us is that for the coming year, these lightly populated remaining towns can fall victim to the casual passer-by with a 22 rifle or even a pistol, despite being somewhat of remote areas.  With the increase of gas/oil and basically energy construction going up in the area, it seems likely that workers accessing these areas are now discovering them and maybe their finding to be as oasis's of dogs to be shot up.   ???  It's hard to say really why they're diminishing but it does seem to be a shooting issue as we have been finding lots of rimfire brass in these areas that once were quite remote. 

This year we hunted what we found to be one of the last valleys that had a decent population in it.  We ended up putting our rifles away so as not to shoot and kill all of them and instead, we walked a huge area with our open sighted Blackhawks and took shots at no prairie dog that was closer than 75 to 100 yards.  Needless to say, we shot a lot and didn't kill all that many.....which ended up our purpose in order to conserve/preserve the dogs in the area.  Quite frankly, we've both become a bit concerned that all of the towns in the area in which we shoot will become sterile "ghost-dog towns".  I even had a crazy fleeting thought of starting a "Prairie dogs Unlimited" where we could preserve the little buggers in order to be able to shoot them and keep their natural habitat and populations in check.  Nonetheless, we both fear that on our next trip out next year, we will find none.  They're literally disappearing that fast in this particular area. 

Now I'm not the world's most avid prairie dog hunter so I don't know all of the "ins and outs" of this sport hobby.  (is this really a sport??)  ;)   Heck, I only do it once a year and my friend and I don't sit at benches and make 1000 yard shots.  We're just not as serious about it or have the time to become as serious about it as some of you hard core prairie dog hunters but we sure have a heck of a lot of fun plinking at them.  Nonetheless, I'd like to find another area to shoot and leave this area alone (in hopes that it will re-populate) but I'm not sure where to go.  Does anyone know of any healthy populations on public lands where one doesn't have to fear that they've shot up the last of the town?

Offline Bigeasy

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1986
  • Gender: Male
Never hunted PD's.  The first time I ever seen one, I was in Denver for training, and as we drove by a couple abandoned building lots, I noticed a lot of rocks.  Looked closer, and they were PD's, in downtown Denver.  I wonder if they go thru population cycles, like grouse do?  Poisoning or diseases may also be factors.  Was there a lot of predator sign?  I would think, being rodents, they would re-populate relatively quickly minus the above factors.

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline Blackhawker

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1486
Never hunted PD's.  The first time I ever seen one, I was in Denver for training, and as we drove by a couple abandoned building lots, I noticed a lot of rocks.  Looked closer, and they were PD's, in downtown Denver.  I wonder if they go thru population cycles, like grouse do?  Poisoning or diseases may also be factors.  Was there a lot of predator sign?  I would think, being rodents, they would re-populate relatively quickly minus the above factors.

Larry
Hi Larry,
Yes, they do go through population swings due to diseases etc.  As for predators, one afternoon, we shot about six or eight PD's in one particular valley and the carcasses were pretty much in plain sight.  The next day there wasn't a sign of them.  We found some coyote scat but most of all there are LOTS of raptors there.  This place is literally a raptor haven and being a past falconer and raptor enthusiast, I love it!  The second morning when we arrived to the valley, there were two ferrougenous hawks chasing a golden eagle.  Later we saw several ferrugenous hawks, red tailed hawks, a prairie falcon and a kestrel.  So yeah, there are LOTS of predators there!  I've seen some badgers out there and definitely found one badger hole/den while walking the area.

The thing is that we've been hunting these little pockets of towns for quite some time.....some up to 15 years, once a year on our annual trip.  Now some of the areas are just silent, still, and dead!  I know we didn't kill them all....we always try to leave a bunch behind for the future of the "hobby" and the animals/ecosystem.

Offline Ladobe

  • Trade Count: (91)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
So what's the GPS coordinates of your towns?  Like most PD shooters you're not going to disclose thier locations let alone post them on an open forum.   But that's what you are asking for.

It's nice to see that you are ethical shooters that intentionally leave some for seed, but not all shooters do.   I've ran into many that kill everything in sight, but also thankfully those that do not too.   Also thankfully even the slobs won't kill all of them even if they try.   But less seed left means much longer recovery for a town.

Both predator and varmint hunting have become very, very popular in this country the last 12-15 years, so the populations are under more pressure now than they ever have been before.   Add natural predation, plagues, weather losses and poor management and it's easy to see why populations are way down even on private pay to shoot lands let alone unmanaged public lands.

I took up the sport over 50 years ago when vast PD towns even on puiblic land were still very common.   Towns so massive you couldn't possible shoot one in a day, some not in several days.   Not so anymore and it hasn't been that way for many years.    Shooters have more free time now and vehicles that will let them find every pocket of PD's no matter how hard they are to get to, so they have taken a heavy toll on them everywhere. 

About a dozen years ago I made ground squirrrels my primary varmint species to hunt.   Landowners welcome you with open arms and the squirrel numbers remain high from year to year.   Provides shooting like the old days with PD's where you can shoot from dawn to dusk and not make much more than a dent in the population.   I even hosted Digger Wars for a few years, an up to 10 day shoot on a bunch of ranches I had the annual Belding GS contracts on.   Invited Internet friends to come shoot free for as many days as they wanted to, and few of them ever took any unfired ammo home.   In fact most were out of ammo after 3-4 days of mostly non-stop shooting. With several species of GS's in the west in several states, usually in large numbers, they have been the target of choice ever since.   The smaller size means you can't see them as far away as PD's, but at DW we shot them out to about 500 yards as a matter of course and much further occassionally.   We also never shot them closer than 150 yards, including the year we made the entire hunt "the Year of the Seventeens" with 17 calibers only (using our 17HMR's along with many 17 caliber wildcats).

So you might try GS shooting instead of PD's.   It's pretty easy to get free land use lined up well ahead of time with some research and a few phone calls, so you know you will have a good shoot before you make the drive.

Larry 
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Blackhawker

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1486
Hi Larry and thanks for your reply and info.....

So what's the GPS coordinates of your towns?  Like most PD shooters you're not going to disclose thier locations let alone post them on an open forum.   But that's what you are asking for.

Truthfully, I wasn't asking about specific locations, GPS coordinates etc, I was more inquiring about general areas where populations are abound without worry of shooting them out.  When I first went to the Thunder Basin area, that was all I knew and was told about it.  From there we had to find the towns.  No one gave specific locations as you interpreted me as asking.  I guess you misinterpreted my question and I may have not expressed what I was asking well enough.    No harm done though.....

You mentioned Digger Wars.  What is that?  I've never heard of it. 
In the area we go to, we definitely see a lot of ground squirrels but they're up for about a half a second and never to be seen again with all of the thick sage brush etc.  These squirrels you're referring to, are they more of a grassland type of squirrel or the dryer sage brush type areas?  I had no idea that ranchers no allow shooters to get rid of them.  I guess it won't be long before they start charging $100 per day per person just like they started doing about 12 or so years ago. 

You're right about those towns.  I've been in those areas in the past where no matter how many you shoot, you can't even make a dent in the population.  It's unreal to see the expanse of the town and as you walk out into the field and the chatter you can hear all across the field.  It's like a bazillion crickets or something.  I guess those days are gone???  I haven't been back to the eastern side of Wyoming since the Ferrets were released and the black tails were said to be threatened.  Maybe it's still like the way it was years ago.  ???

Offline Ladobe

  • Trade Count: (91)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
You mentioned Digger Wars.  What is that?  I've never heard of it. 
In the area we go to, we definitely see a lot of ground squirrels but they're up for about a half a second and never to be seen again with all of the thick sage brush etc.  These squirrels you're referring to, are they more of a grassland type of squirrel or the dryer sage brush type areas?  I had no idea that ranchers no allow shooters to get rid of them.  I guess it won't be long before they start charging $100 per day per person just like they started doing about 12 or so years ago. 

Like I said above, Digger Wars was an annual 10 day shoot that I originated and organized on contracted ranches/farms in Northern Nevada.   Since I took all the legal and financial responsibility for it, the participants were by invitation only.   In that area the target was the Belding GS's that raise havock with every cash crop on the farms, especially the large Medicago fields.   It costs the land owners big money to poison them several times a season as in that area anyway the poison has to be buried below ground by expensive equipment designed for doing it.   Instead of charging us, many LO's wanted to pay us for shooting their squirrels, and in a way some did.   They also owned many of the businesses in the small local towns and we soon learned that our money was no good at the restaurants, grocery, gas stations or even the town bars that they owned.   We camped on these shoots, but one owner that owned the main hotel in town reserved his best room for us to take showers in.   While we would greatly reduce their numbers in the planted fields and bordering CRP and BLM lands every year, they always recolonized to about the same numbers each year (way more than all of us combined could shoot each year).   So we shot the planted and CRP fileds the most, but we also did evening walking hunts with rimfires on the BLM sagebrush scrub that bordered many farms.   At night we called predators as well.   With 18 or 19 species of GS's here in the west, usually in strong numbers, they are a better choice than PD's if you like to shoot alot.
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1839
 >:(   Blackhawk, Ladobe is accurate in his description of dog hunting...another thing that hurt p. dog populations is the advent of cheap .223 ammo..when I first came to this valley there were few shooters and they used common 22's...with the cheap .223 ammo every hunter in the area has one so there went a bunch of dogs that would have survived if they only had .22's... also in the early 90's a magazine called VARMIT HUNTER hit the market..at first I was happy...BUT I realized quickly, this was the end of the great varmit hunting I had enjoyed...was I right...now the big ranches charge $ 275/day to shoot...I hunted them for nothing and had an offer to charge a couple cases of .22 shells to the ranch budget..but on these places the dogs are down markedly...in our area it was some sickness that took them out..because last fall there were lots of dogs before winter,  but come spring they did not reemerge..so sickness did them in..I still shoot some dogs, but not many...as for gophers the "guides" have decended on that population also...they are now under the fee for p. dogs..but they are in great numbers around irrigated lands, but getting on can be difficult due to the equipment and people in these areas.. varmit hunting all over the west is on the skids...rock chucks are hammered in the areas they used to be plentiful, p. dogs, coyotes, even ground squirreds....Bob Hagel told me 20 years ago the ground squirrel populations in his area had been shot out with all the new varmit hunter s in the area....Jacks are the same story, gone....sad but true.....

Offline Blackhawker

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1486
Thanks for the info and commentary Ladobe and Wyo. Coyote Hunter.  The ground squirrel hunting sounds fun but it seem like one has to find or know a land owner to do it.  I'm over 1000 miles away from western Wyoming so it's pretty unlikely I'd have any luck finding a land owner out that way.  

As for the outlook on P Dog hunting, I guess the scene is the same everywhere else.....which is what I was essentially trying to determine with this thread.  As you mentioned WCH, my buddy and I started this at least 20 years ago using only .22's and maybe our 30 carbine Blackhawks.  As time went by, we always wanted to get something else that was more effective on the dogs, both by range and by kill power.  I hate to see the darn little things squirm around after a hit from a .22 round at 100 or more yards.  So we got into the Thompson Contenders.  We both have .223's but neither of us really use them.  We found that it's no challenge to just sit for a short while and literally kill everything if one so desires.  So I stick with my T/C pistol a lot and we both shoot odd or non-traditional calibers for prairie dogs...such as 45 Colt, 44 mag, 45-70 and last year I even used my iron sighted 38-55 single shot.  We both like to shoot a lot and don't mind missing the targets so long as the shots were long distance, well-hearted attempts, many times just at or beyond any sensible or effective range of the caliber.  We're definitely not there to "kill all of the damn things" and basically wipe em out as some shooters seem to be set on doing.  Basically, they're targets of opportunity and I find it a hell of a lot of fun to try to shoot em while they're on the run rather than just pop em when sitting there like a stone.  The way I figure; why not just shoot a bottle of water or a lone standing stone way across the field rather than diminish the population dogs with "easy shots" like that.   ???  I know, that sounds weird, but that's the way I see it.  

I agree that the .223 is more than likely the culprit for much of the demise of the P.Dog.  This year, in our "last hold out" area of dogs, we found some 17 HMR brass on the ground and a bunch of piles of steel cases from the inexpensive Wolf brand of .223 ammo.  Being Wolf ammo and the brass laying in piles of 20 to 30 rounds, this told me that the shooter was probably somone who owned a Ruger mini-14 or AR-15 style of rifle and basically "sprayed" ammo at the dogs until eventually they got lucky enough to hit a few before they had to head back to Wal Mart to buy a few more boxes of ammo.  It's only a matter of time before they buy and spray enough ammo to finish off the town.  Sadly, I'm almost certain that what was nearly a virgin town of dogs will be gone by next year.  

It's too bad that some of us who have been doing this for so long can't join together and begin a conservation effort for some of these critters, much like Ducks Unlimited did many years ago for wetlands conservation and species conservation.  The only problem is to justify it.  Obviously the efforts would be mainly to preserve our source of "targets of opportunity" and I'm sure the animal rights people would just LOVE that!    ::)  
My friend and I always joke that if we had some money, we'd buy up a bunch of land and breed P dogs and let em establish towns all over the property and enjoy the rest of our days shooting at them.  (What a bunch of sick b@st@rds, huh?)

By the way WCH, we've definitely noticed a serious drop in the jackrabbit population as well.  In fact, we took note of that about 10 years ago.  In the part of Wyoming we visit, they're nearly gone altogether.  Within a period of four days of wandering the open country and hills out there, we came across one...maybe two.   :(

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Prairie Dogs are notorious for carrying Bubonic Plague. I think thats why it seems like they come and go in cycles sometimes. They get wiped out pretty bad and then come back. You guys are right about the hunting pressure too. Cycles like that happen with alot of critters for different reasons. Like when Coyote pelts are bringing good prices and getting trapped hard, the rabbit population booms with less Coyote pressure. Less Coyotes, more rabbits. The kids used to get really sick of eating cottontails during those times. When trapping falls off with the prices, more Coyotes and less rabbits and so on. Rabies makes a run through the critter population every so often too. Had a pretty good Rabies outbreak in Big Horn County some years ago. It was really bad in the Skunks. Usually nocturnal the little stinkers would run around during the day and cause as much trouble as a skunk can. We were told to kill them if we saw them in the daytime cause they were most likely rabid.
It's not much consolation but when the shooters get tired of going out there for nothing they will stop going and the dogs will come back, eventually. They always seem to. Tuff little critters to wipe out all together or there wouldn't be any at all by now. Lots of ranchers have tried to get rid of them for good and didn't get it done. I sure don't see as many of those older big fat hog dogs like I used to though.
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline Ladobe

  • Trade Count: (91)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
Thanks for the info and commentary Ladobe and Wyo. Coyote Hunter.  The ground squirrel hunting sounds fun but it seem like one has to find or know a land owner to do it.  I'm over 1000 miles away from western Wyoming so it's pretty unlikely I'd have any luck finding a land owner out that way.  

Being 1000 miles away does not make any difference if you really want to go shoot GS's.   It's not hard at all to get places lined up before driving there, and not much harder to get them after making the drive if in either case you present yourself in a possitive and professional manner.    Not wanting to leave it to chance after a long drive I always set my properties up far ahead (a year is not too early).   IOW a little research and phone calling beforehand on your part can assure you places to shoot, even in states you've never been to before.   Simply check with the local game ranger, county biologist, sporting goods stores or rancher/farmer co-ops and you'll get plenty of LO names and phone numbers to call.    Some may already have shooters lined up for the coming season, but not all will.   Some LO's give out the annual contracts a year or more in advance, but some seem to wait until the last minute.   Once you've shot a property and proven your worth and ethics to each LO you will get referrals by the handfull from them and the next years shoot on thier land reserved for you a year in advance.

That's what works for me anyway.   Like all my predator and varmint hunting on private land, I set up the first 6 properties for the first DW that way without having ever been there, all by phone calls to people I didn't know.   Then when I got to the area I stopped in at and chatted with the gamne warden, county biologist, gun stores, co-ops and checked in with my LO's and got an endless list of additional LO's to contact.   I stopped adding more for DW by the second shoot as I had the contracts for 35 fair sized properties in one valley, and for a 380,000 acre property in another an hour away.    We had way more than we could shoot every year, and I automatically had the annual contracts for as long as I wanted them.

BTW, I did write up a contract for the use of the properties that I had the LO's sign along with a legal and financial resposibility form that I signed and gave the LO.     Ask the LO what they prefer as far as restricted areas, worker and livestock routines, picking up carcasses and brass.   Most will take you on a tour of their properties, and most will let the carcasses stay for the predators to clean up, and rimfire brass can lay where it falls.   As reloaders we always picked up centerfire brass.   Leave the property cleaner than it was before you got there, and if you shoot a wire repair it, or if equipment/livestock is shot report it right away to the LO.   At DW no equipment or livestock were ever shot, but we shot a few fence wires over the years.   I carried the repair tools and supplies in my truck so would fix them (but still report them to the LO when I saw them).   And always check in with the LO when you are leaving the property.   They soon become friends that you learn what they fancy, so I also always took a few gifts to them on future shoots.  On that biggest ranch he was a serios Scotch drinker and the wife lived for Pepsi.   So a case of his brand of Scotch and 10-12 cases of Pepsi were always added to the load when I packed my truck for the annual shoot.   Many of my guests also brought goodies for the LO's, so it was like another Christmas for them and a very small fee to pay for the use of their land for 10 days of the most fun shooting you can have.   We always left the LO's and towns people with a respect and trust for predator and varmint hunters, so the next crew to come along would also have a place to shoot.

So don't give up.   Instead get busy setting up properties for next years shoot.   You have to go where the GS's are available, so don't be afraid to drive futher either if that's what it takes.

Good luck and have fun.
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Dogshooter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 609
  • NRA Life Member
I live in SW Wyoming and there have been some changes in he way I hunt prarie dogs. 35 years ago, they were everywhere and had huge towns where you could set up your bench and shoot 200 rounds in one day from one place. Didn't seem to hurt the populations from year to year but there were not nearly as many people out there bangin away at them as there are now. Over the last ten years or so, I see more and more very small towns and they are more likely to be in the sage brush as in the open ground that they always used to inhabit. I don't know but they seem to be evolving and learning that they won't survive the open country. Very seldom do I see all the mounds in the open. As for sheer numbers, it would be hard to say if there are fewer here, they just hide better. Now when I go out I might get 15 or 20 shots in a day but I still see a lot of mounds and catch glimpses of dogs darting thru the sage, not presenting any shots at all. Like you have all pointed out, there are a lot more people banging away at them but personally I won't disparage that behavior. We are loosing hunters at too fast a rate to discourage anyone that wants to go out and do what I have been doing for over fifty years.
Perception is everything. For instance, a crowded elevator smells different to a midget.

Offline Blackhawker

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1486
Ladobe, thanks for all the info on the ground squirrels. Sounds like a lot of fun and the smaller targets could be a bit more of a challenge.  I guess I can take my 223 back out again.  I'll have to look into land owners and the GS situation.  I guess it can be done, even living far from the places to shoot.

Dogshooter, thanks for your added info.  What you said sounds a lot more like the situation we've come across.  The way I figure is that the white tailed dogs are different than the black tails.  The black tails live out in the open grassland and sit out in the open, basically almost inviting someone to shoot at them.  The white tails live in a different environment for the most part.....much like SW Wyo.  Instead of open grassland, they're more of sage brush dwellers, and as you mention, it's sometimes hard to get a good shot at them since they tend to blend in or hide in their surrondings better.  Despite them being hard to see and shoot at, they still seem to be on a decline....as everyone else seems to agree with on the basic situation of all of the prairie dogs.  It's a real "bummer" to see things go that way, whether hunting them or not.